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1
TOWNSHIP OF PLUMSTED
2 MUNICIPAL UTILITIES AUTHORITY
3
4
5 PUBLIC HEARING RE: *
6 SCOPING HEARING AND
REDEVELOPMENT *
7 PLAN UPDATE. *
8
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9
10
11 TRANSCRIPT OF
PROCEEDINGS
12 JUNE 29, 2010
13
14 BEFORE:
15
16 MICHAEL MC CUE-CHAIRMAN
17 WALTER
BRONSON-VICE-CHAIRMAN
18 ROBERT MINTER-TREASURER
19 PETER
YLVISAKER-EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
20 NANCY HENDRICKSON-SECRETARY
21
22 RICHARD F. DURIK, CCR
23 5025 Megill Road
24 Farmingdale, New Jersey 07727
25 (732) 938-5906
2
2
1
2 T R A N S C R I P T of
the stenographic notes
3 of the proceedings in the above entitled
matters,
4 as taken by and before CHARLES R. SENDERS,
5
Certified Shorthand Reporter (License No. 596) and
6 Notary
Public of the State of New Jersey, held at
7 the Plumsted
Municipal Building, 121 Evergreen
8 Road, New Egypt, New Jersey
on Tuesday, June 29,
9 2010, commencing at 7:00 in the evening,
pursuant
10 to notice.
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3
1 A P P E A R A N C E S:
2
3 DASTI, MURPHY, MC
GUCKIN, ULAKY,
4 CHERKOS & CONNORS, ESQS.
5 Attorneys for
the PMUA
6 620 W. Lacey Road, Box 1057
7 Forked River, New
Jersey 08731
8 BY: GREGORY P. MC GUCKIN, ESQ.
9
10
ALSO PRESENT:
11 GREG BARKELY-VAN CLEEF ENGINEERING ASSOCIATES
12 THOMAS DWYER-EASTERN GEO SCIENCE
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4
1 (Transcript of proceedings, June 29,
2 2010, commencing at 7:00
p.m.)
3 MR. MC CUE: Good evening everyone.
4 I'd like to
call the June 29 meeting of the
5 Plumsted Utilities Authority to
order. I would ask
6 everyone to stand to salute the flag.
7 (Whereupon, the flag salute takes
8 place).
9 Roll
call, please.
10 MS. HENDRICKSON: Mr. Mc Cue?
11 MR. MC
CUE: Here.
12 MS. HENDRICKSON: Mr. Bronson?
13 MR.
BRONSON: Here.
14 MS. HENDRICKSON: Mr. Weirsky?
15 MR. MC
CUE: Mr. Weirsky is unable to
16 attend tonight.
17 MS.
HENDRICKSON: Mr. Minter?
18 MR. MINTER: Here.
19 MR. MC
CUE: I'd like have the reading
20 of the Open Public Meetings
Act.
21 (Whereupon, the Open Public Meetings
22 Act
provisions read by Mr. Mc Guckin).
23 MR. MC CUE: Good evening
everyone,
24 welcome. I apologize for the SRO crowd, but,
25 obviously, it is an important issue to everyone.
5
5
1 The reason for this meeting is to do a
2 scoping hearing having to do with a proposed
3 diversion of
some Green Acres properties from the
4 recreational and open
space inventory in the
5 Township.
6 In conjunction with
that, we want to
7 basically present to everyone information with
8 respect to the redevelopment project.
9 This particular
information goes hand in hand.
10 What I will do is give a little
presentation at
11 first. Then we'll open it up to comments.
12 In regards to the comments, we've asked
13 people to
sign-in and we're going to call them in
14 that order. Once we go
through that list we'll
15 open it up. We have set an adjournment
for 11:00
16 p.m.
17 If anyone, you know, wants to hang
18 around and still has questions or comments to make,
19 we
will be here to make them. If there is anybody
20 that doesn't
get to say something, we'll address it
21 at that point in time.
22 I would like to point out that the
23 record is open until
two weeks from today, July
24 13th, where written comments can be
sent to the--
25 we'll provide you with an address, both the New
6
6
1 Jersey DEP and the Main
Street building in the
2 downtown.
3 So what I'd like to
do, I've got a
4 little power point. I'm going to come around,
5 basically run through it. It will probably only
6 take
about thirty-five to forty-five minutes. In
7 the middle of it
we're going to have some other
8 speakers to provide some more
information with
9 respect to the redevelopment project.
10 Then at that point in time we'll open
11 it up to questions
and comments.
12 What I'm going to be covering here,
13
basically the scoping hearing, we're going to be
14 accepting
public comment with respect to potential
15 diversion of
parkland.
16 Additionally I'm going to give
17 everybody
an update on the redevelopment project,
18 basically how we got
here, what has happened, what
19 we're doing now and where we're
going to be going,
20 how we're going to address paying for this
21 particular project, briefly talk about the housing
22
component. Then give you a project timeline so you
23 have an
idea of what's going on.
24 Again, to introduce myself, I'm Mike
Mc
25 Cue. I'm the MUA Chairman. I'm a twenty-one year
7
7
1 resident. I'm a process safety
manager for a
2 chemical company. The Vice Chairman is Walter
3 Bronson, he is over my right shoulder. He's an
4 eight year
resident of the Township. He's a civil
5 engineer for an
engineering company here in New
6 Jersey.
7 Over my left
shoulder is Bob Minter,
8 the Treasurer-- I'm sorry. Walt Bronson
is also on
9 the Land Use Board.
10 Bob Minter, the
Treasurer, is a fifteen
11 year resident of the Township. He is a
12 construction manager for a company that's involved
13 with
the relocation of a natural gas pipeline
14 pursuant to the
Turnpike widening project.
15 We mentioned Ed Weirsky, he isn't
16 available for this meeting. But he's an operations
17
manager for a pipeline company here in New Jersey.
18 He's a
fifteen year resident. He's also a member of
19 the Environmental
Commission.
20 We have basically three vacancies. It
21 is
a five member Board with two alternates. There
22 is a sign-in
sheet if anybody wants to volunteer.
23 I will tell you that the
meetings aren't as lively
24 as this one. In fact, there are a
lot of seats
25 available at most of our meetings. In fact, the
8
8
1 next meeting is in two
weeks, I believe.
2 MR. YLVISAKER: July 20th.
3 MR. MC
CUE: We have support staff. Mr.
4 Ylvisaker who is our Executive
Director, he wears a
5 number of hats in town. He's also the Main
Street
6 Director. He's involved with the Neighborhood
7
Preservation Program. He's been in the Township
8 about three
years, basically, does a lot of the
9 behind the scenes support
to what goes on in the
10 Township.
11 He's involved with
running the various
12 New Egypt Days and fairs that go on. He's
involved
13 with the Memorial Day Parade and a number of
14 things. He's been a valuable resource to the
15 Township and
the redevelopment project.
16 Over my right shoulder is Nancy
17 Hendrickson, who's the Secretary to the MUA. She's
18 also
the Deputy Municipal Clerk, very valuable
19 asset to the
Township.
20 We have some professional consultants.
21
Greg Barkely is here, he'll talk later on. I'll go
22 into his
background in a little bit. With him is
23 Tom Dwyer who works
for Eastern Geo Science, who
24 will give a presentation later
on. Greg Mc Guckin
25 is the MUA counsel. Additionally we have
some
9
9
1 other support staff.
Jim Fearon from Gluck,
2 Walrath is our bond counsel. And Neill
Grossman of
3 Goldman & Associates, is our financial advisor, not
4 only to us, but also the Township.
5 How do we get to this
point in terms of
6 having a redevelopment project? A little bit
of
7 town history. We've got a very interesting
8
township. From about 1895 to the early twentieth
9 century, the
New Egypt section of the Township was
10 an attractive
recreational area for people
11 throughout New Jersey to come.
12 Basically, there was train service to
13 the area. Because
of the man-made Oakford Lake,
14 there were a number of
summertime activities that
15 people were attracted to.
16
The rest of Plumsted Township was
17 farmland and forest. We had
a number attractions
18 here, twenty-five hotels, which amazed
me, a number
19 of other things, a pajama factory, a cigar
20 factory. The whole point was excellent telephone
21
service.
22 The New Egypt section of the Township
23 was
basically the anchor of the community, where
24 people basically
came to for entertainment.
25 Basically, most of this information
came out of a
10
10
1 book and
I recommend you take a look at it. It is a
2 photo essay of New
Egypt and Plumsted Township.
3 You can see at the Historical
Society building.
4 I'm sure copies are available in the library.
5 What happened was, through the 1920s
6 into the 1960s a
number of things happened, both
7 here and throughout New Jersey
and the United
8 States, the proliferation of the automobile.
9 People were able to start traveling further
10 distances,
they didn't have to rely on train
11 service, the evolution of
entertainment, the rise
12 of television, multiplex movie
theater.
13 Many of you have noticed that we have a
14 new
parking lot downtown. That particular piece of
15 property was a
movie house,. A movie house was
16 located on that property, but
now we have it as a
17 parking lot.
18 The evolution of
shopping, basically
19 bigger shopping malls and more regional
type
20 shopping detracted or impacted the downtown and the
21 smaller shops, so they were detrimentally impacted
22 by
this.
23 Just an indication of the population, a
24
comparison of Ocean County and Plumsted, back in
25 1880 there
were 660 people in the Township. Today
11
11
1 there is around 8,200. As you can see from the
2
charts, the population in both Ocean County and New
3 Jersey was
fairly flat up until around 1960 and
4 then started taking off.
Basically, that had an
5 impact of what could be done because of
the number
6 of people in the Township.
7 So in the New
Egypt downtown, the
8 summer bungalows that were used for
vacation
9 purposes became year-round residences. They had
10 inadequate septic capacity. Basically they were
11 under
designed systems and cesspools that
12 detrimentally impacted
Oakford Lake and Crosswicks
13 Creek.
14 As more people
came into the Township
15 and started living around the downtown,
a public
16 need was created for sewers. One of the things
17 people will say, well, why don't you go get grants
18 to
pay for sewers in the downtown? At one point in
19 time grants
were available. In 1972 in the Clean
20 Water Act, there was a
construction grants program
21 that provided grants to
municipalities. That
22 program provided seventy-five percent
federal money
23 to twenty-five percent either state or local.
That
24 disappeared in 1987 where it was replaced with
25
loans. So that particular program isn't available
12
12
1 for us to get money to pay for the sewers.
2 Recent grant programs, last year you
3 had the American
Recovery and Reinvestment Act.
4 They were giving out money for
these type of
5 projects. But they were looking for shovel ready.
6 Basically you had to have all the permits, you had
7 to
have everything identified, you were ready to
8 build. We weren't
one of them. They also had
9 taxable bonds that came out this
year and they
10 expired the end of 2010.
11 Basically
what we have to work with is
12 the NJEIT, the New Jersey
Environmental
13 Infrastructure Trust Program. Unfortunately,
14 again, because of timing-- was it last year, we had
15
twenty-five percent?
16 MR. BRONSON: 2009.
17 MR. MC CUE:
2009, they were providing,
18 if you were going for a particular
amount,
19 twenty-five percent could be in grants, so you
20 wouldn't have to pay it back. That was only for
21 2009. That
was money derived from the American
22 Recovery and Reinvestment
Act. That expired at the
23 end of 2009.
24 Another factor
that impacted Plumsted
25 and New Egypt had to do with what I
call
13
13
1 preservation
programs. One of the biggest ones was
2 the federal program that
they implemented back
3 toward the beginning of the twentieth
century.
4 They basically came up taking half of
5 the
Township and making it Camp Dix at the time,
6 which later became
Fort Dix. Fifty percent
7 Township is in federal land and,
obviously,
8 unavailable to the residents of the Township.
9 On a local level we aggressively,
10 starting in 1990,
aggressively went after
11 preserving property in the Township,
farmlands,
12 natural lands, things of that nature. To the point
13 where we have over 3,000 acres preserved.
14 Mayor
Dancer-- where is Ron? Hi, Ron,
15 how are you doing? Ron Dancer
was one of the
16 initial members of the Ocean County
Agricultural
17 Development Board, which basically was the
impetus
18 or mechanism for preserving farmland. It's kind of
19 a nice program because it's fifty percent paid by
20 the
state, forty percent by the county and ten
21 percent by the
municipality.
22 Basically we committed, on a Township
23
level, to put money aside to preserve farmland.
24 Like I said,
since 1990 we preserved almost-- over
25 3,000 acres. I like to
say we sort of define Smart
14
14
1 Growth. Smart Growth is a term that's been kicked
2 around
for probably the last ten years or so.
3 Towns like Jackson are
scrambling now to protect
4 land, they haven't been doing it for
so many years.
5 New Egypt has been doing it early and
6
basically identified a public need to implement a
7 project in
the future. That allows us-- you'll see
8 in a second in a sense
why we are a unique kind of
9 a situation. We don't have to worry
about large
10 developments, because we don't have a lot of open
11 land that can be developed. But that's a double
12 edged
sword.
13 As everyone well knows right now, every
14
government in the United States is having a hard
15 time with
taxes and their budgets, being able to
16 pay for things. There
are-- you know, it's a very
17 difficult situation. In our
Township people are
18 being furloughed one day a month. I
believe I read
19 in the newspaper that Jackson is furloughing
every
20 week for the rest of the year. I mean, I'm just,
21 like, amazed that they have to do that.
22 But in regards to
Smart Growth, we got
23 our first Town Center designation in
1998,
24 basically started in 2002 with a number of things.
25 We got the Main Street designation. Both of those
15
15
1 allow us to apply for certain
benefits, both
2 monetarily and also assistance in terms of how
we
3 do our planning, how we move forward.
4 At that point
in time hearings
5 commenced on a redevelopment plan. The
6 redevelopment plan I'll get into in a second as to
7 what that
involves. Basically we started talking
8 about that in 2002. We
got to 2004, we adopted a
9 plan and it was amended in 2005.
10 As a result of that plan, we designated
11 Centex, which
is a very large builder, as the
12 developer for this project.
Unfortunately in 2007,
13 based on a number of factors, Centex
withdrew from
14 it. Then we went out as a Township and sought
out
15 other developers. We decided upon Kokes.
16 In 2009
we initiated our Wastewater
17 Management Plan, which is
basically the mechanism
18 for getting approval from the DEP for
a sewer
19 building and operating a sewage treatment system.
20 Recently we got our state plan endorsement, which
21
identified and approved the Town Center sewer
22 service area.
Basically this is, you know, sort of
23 the history of our aspect
of Smart Growth.
24 Just to orient you, let's see, here is
25 Fort Dix, here is Main Street. I'm not going to
16
16
1 use any pointers, my thing is not
working.
2 Basically, here is Main Street, Evergreen, we're
3 right up there. This is Maple Avenue, Jacobstown
4 Road,
Lakewood Road.
5 Now, the properties in green represent
6
preserved farmland. That red and white dotted
7 outline is the
designated town center. So you can
8 see as a town goes, we're
pretty developed. We
9 don't have a lot of land to-- I mean, you
know,
10 there are some open spots and everything like that,
11 but they are not-- they are either developed or
12 they
are not suitable for the purposes that we're
13 looking at here.
Again, that is another depiction
14 of the Town Center that was
submitted and approved
15 by the DEP.
16 So what is a
redevelopment plan?
17 Basically, a redevelopment is a process to
18 rehabilitate or improve an area in decline,
19
disinvestment or abandonment. It basically gives
20 an entity a
number of tools to improve their
21 situation. It becomes a
realistic and a practical
22 approach to rehabilitation.
23 One of the key mechanisms that are
24 available to townships
that employ a redevelopment
25 plan, is a concept called payment
in lieu of taxes
17
17
1 or
PILOT. I'll go into that in a few minutes.
2 It's a revenue
mechanism to ensure that a
3 redevelopment plan works.
4
So what is our plan? Again, it is a
5 comprehensive economic
development strategy to
6 provide sewer service to the downtown.
The original
7 concept was to identify a redeveloper to build on
a
8 designated property, allowing them a certain
9
density. Then from there they would pay for the
10
infrastructure, the water and the wastewater.
11 Again, it was a
public/private
12 partnership to have this particular redeveloper
13 build on what's called this Plumsted residential
14
retirement community, and provide that service to
15 both that
property and also the downtown area.
16 The initial concept was
just to have
17 them build age restricted housing, not have an
18 impact to the school system. In the plan it
19 identifies
that that particular property would only
20 be about
approximately five-hundred units.
21 Back when we were looking at
the entire
22 plan, we looked at other properties that we might
23 allow age restricted housing to be built. At no
24 time
was the total number of units more than about
25 850, in terms of
the plan.
18
18
1 So how was it
developed? During 2002
2 through 2004 there were numerous
meetings. Many of
3 them were joint meetings with the Land Use
Board.
4 The particular plan was drafted by the Township
5
Planner, Dave Roberts. It was approved in 2004 by
6 both the
Township Committee and the Township Land
7 Use Board, then
amended in 2005 by both entities.
8 I mentioned that Centex came
out of the
9 picture back in-- I'm just trying to orient
10 myself-- back in 2007--it was the end of 2006 into
11 2007
that Centex had dropped out.
12 At that point in time we
advertised for
13 interested parties to bid on the project. We
had
14 about eleven entities, different developers
15
approach us about it. Only three basically applied
16 to be
selected.
17 The Kokes organization was selected.
18 They
are a privately owned family oriented
19 development with forty
years of experience. They
20 are Concordia up in Monroe, there
are a number of
21 developments down in Whiting. Basically it
built
22 over 20,000 homes in Ocean and Monmouth Counties.
23 They are proposing to build 336 age
24 restricted housing
on the PRRC site. The main
25 difference-- there are two factors
that come into
19
19
1 play as
to why there is a difference in terms of
2 the number.
3
One of which is that Centex had
4 proposed some town houses which
were attached
5 housing, which increased their density. The other
6 had to do with basically their layout, which was
7
different from Centex. As far as a redevelopment
8 plan goes, we
have some major issues with respect
9 to it. There is water
allocation, the disposal of
10 the wastewater and the cost.
11 Water allocation, unfortunately, we're
12 sort of at the
mercy of New Jersey American Water.
13 They have a franchise for
the entire Township.
14 Which means we can't go out to bid and
they
15 basically get the franchise.
16 The way-- again,
just to explain what
17 the situation is, that Plumsted Township
is in an
18 area called a threatened aquifer. There are limits
19 in terms of--certainly in many cases, no new
20 hookups
with respect to systems pulling from the
21 aquifer that we're
in.
22 The way we're looking to address that
23 in this
case is what is called a base allocation
24 transfer. That will
be-- they have-- New Jersey
25 American Water has some idle wells
in another
20
20
1 location,
but they have permits for those wells.
2 New Jersey DEP will
allow us to basically use those
3 permitted wells and drill new
wells in our Township
4 which will basically come from the same
aquifer. It
5 is acceptable to the New Jersey DEP.
6
Wastewater disposal alternatives
7 investigated, we looked at a
number of different--
8 we had a number of different strategies,
if you
9 will.
10 Again, my favorite, where I started
11 from when I got into this project. Again, I'm
12 starting
my sixth year on the redevelopment
13 project. The first thing
that I was saying, why
14 don't we discharge into the Crosswicks
Creek?
15 Well, there are number of issues with the DEP in
16 regards to that. One of which is they told me that
17
you're discharging--you are taking water from an
18 aquifer and
discharging it to surface water. You
19 need to recharge it to
the aquifer.
20 There are issues with respect to what
21
is already being discharged to Crosswicks Creek
22 downstream.
I'm sure they will come up with other
23 reasons. But we didn't
get anywhere with
24 Crosswicks Creek. They basically said there
are
25 other groundwater disposal options at your
21
21
1 availability, come back after you
exhausted all of
2 them.
3 Another strategy we looked at
was a
4 hookup to the Ocean County Utilities Authority. The
5 cost and distance were the main reasons we nixed
6 those.
7 Another one was the regional sewer
8 system with the
Hanovers. You know, we looked at
9 it, but it wasn't a viable
option for us for a
10 number of reasons. The fact that we're
dealing
11 with multiple municipalities, two counties. We as
12 an entity were further along in terms of things
13 that we
needed to do to have this project work
14 versus the Hanovers. So
that was not a viable
15 alternative.
16 So we basically
said we had to look at
17 groundwater discharge and basically
have a
18 municipal sewage treatment plant within the
19
Township and disposal to property within the
20 Township.
21 We looked at a number of different
22 options. The Search
property, it's located on 539,
23 basically I guess you call it
east from the
24 industrial park. It is an open field there. That
25 didn't prove viable because of--again, I'm not a
22
22
1 geologist, but marl is a particular
problem there,
2 the fact that you need proper drainage to
address
3 the properties that you are going to have
4
groundwater disposal at.
5 We looked at some properties on Maple
6 Avenue. I mentioned earlier about having another
7
developer in the mix, they were going to develop
8 properties on
Maple Avenue. We looked at those
9 properties. We did an
investigation with New
10 Jersey American Water on those
properties. Those
11 properties did not prove to be a viable
option for
12 us.
13 So we came to the Lakewood Road
14 properties. How we came there was a cooperative
15 effort
between the New Jersey DEP and the Township
16 to identify
properties that we could look at.
17 We identified some
properties, some of
18 which were privately owned and some that
was--
19 thirty acres that was Township owned through the
20 Green Acres Funding Program. That's why we're all
21 here
tonight.
22 Basically there is a process in Green
23
Acres, and it's been in effect since 2006, where
24 you can do a
major diversion from the ROSI, the
25 recreational and open space
inventory.
23
23
1 One of the--
I mean, there are many
2 requirements for you to do that. First
of which,
3 you need to have a public hearing and get input
4 from the Township, open to comment. Again, one of
5 the
things I would ask everyone to just keep in
6 mind, one of the
things that we want to hear, is if
7 you have an alternative to
what we're proposing
8 here.
9 The process involves a
hearing, an
10 application to the DEP. Basically, if the DEP
11 accepts our application, I believe we have to have
12
another hearing after that or before that?
13 MR. YLVISAKER:
After.
14 MR. MC CUE: After. The New Jersey DEP
15 decides
on our application. Then it goes to a
16 Statehouse Commission
for review. So there is
17 going to be at least one more public
hearing having
18 to do with that, if we go that far.
19
Again, we identified these properties.
20 What we did in terms of
the strategy, was to do the
21 investigation on the Green Acres
properties to see
22 if that particular area was suitable. The
Maple
23 Avenue properties proved to be, after the
24
investigation and quite honestly a lot sooner,
25 because New
Jersey American Water was doing the
24
24
1 investigation, it became evident to them that the
2
properties weren't appropriate. They took their
3 good time in
telling us that. But we wanted to see
4 if the Green Acres
property wasn't going to be
5 worthwhile.
6 Again, it had
to do with the timing of
7 things. We decided then we would have
to go find
8 something else.
9 But at this point in time
we found that
10 the Green Acres property-- again, this was going
11 back into December, that the property was
12 suitable. We
needed to get access to the privately
13 owned properties, to
test out those properties.
14 That took about six months.
Basically, that's what
15 we're doing here.
16 One other
point I want to make about
17 the process-- two other points
about the process, a
18 major diversion from the ROSI properties.
One of
19 which is that, as part of the application and I
20 can't tell you right now today what it is, but we
21 have to
propose, for every acre we take out for
22 ROSI we have to
substitute two acres for that
23 property.
24 So if we
take out thirty acres we need
25 to acquire sixty acres to go
into the Green Acres
25
25
1
Program. It is not-- the whole idea is to make it
2 less
attractive to whoever it is that wants to do
3 that.
4
From what we understand from the Green
5 Acres people, again, it
has only been in effect
6 since 2006, there have been major
diversions from
7 ROSI/Green Acres properties. I don't have any
kind
8 of details as to what kind, but there have been
9
diversions from the Green Acres, all right.
10 Here is a map
showing locations with
11 respect to where we are investigating
certain
12 locations. One of which is pretty-- we're pretty
13 sure it is going to be the pumping station. It is
14
located in the downtown area behind the New Egypt
15 Welcome
Center. We're looking at two different
16 sites with respect to
the sewage treatment plant
17 and then basically the area in
terms of the
18 groundwater discharge area up off of Lakewood
Road.
19 At this point in time I'd like to call
20 Greg
Barkely and Tom Dwyer. Greg is a Licensed
21 Professional
Engineer. He has his bachelor's in
22 agricultural engineering
from Rutgers. He works for
23 Van Cleef who is our MUA engineer.
He's done a lot
24 of work in this particular area. That's one of
the
25 reasons why we selected him as the MUA engineer.
26
26
1 With him is Tom Dwyer, who is
the
2 President of Eastern Geoscience. He has a bachelor
3
and master's in geology. He's a professional
4 geologist in
Delaware, Pennsylvania and New Jersey,
5 but not-- excuse me,
Pennsylvania, Delaware and
6 Virginia, but not New Jersey,
because New Jersey
7 doesn't have a professional geologist
license.
8 What I'd like to do is ask them to
9 basically
provide some background information as to
10 what we've had them
do and where we are, at this
11 point in time, Greg.
12
MR. BARKELY: I'll try to talk loud as
13 well, so I don't have to
use the microphone. As
14 Mike had said, we started the analysis
with
15 performing some testing at the groundwater
16
discharge area site. I'm going to let Tom focus on
17 that, since
that's going to be more of his forte.
18 Backing up into some of
the analysis of
19 that, one of the things to keep in mind with
any
20 recharge area like this, it is permitted through
21
the State of New Jersey. They require very high
22 levels of
treatment before the wastewater gets into
23 the ground, which is
a significant departure from
24 what you are probably all
familiar with, with
25 septic systems.
27
27
1 Septic systems, for example, have a
2
settling tank. The solids either float to the top
3 of the tank
or settle to the bottom. A relatively
4 clear liquid flows out to
the disposal field and it
5 percolates into the ground.
6
The only mode of treatment that occurs
7 is that settling. What
occurs, is the water
8 percolates through the ground and it
filters the
9 wastewater and removes bacteria and the like.
10 With any of these permitted wastewater
11 treatment
facilities, the level of treatment
12 includes removal of solids
at the treatment
13 facility and the removal of nutrients and
bacterial
14 contaminants. Nitrogen is a big item that isn't
15 removed in a septic system, but is removed in a
16
wastewater treatment facility.
17 To give you an example of that,
the
18 State will require that any treatment facility
19
discharge less than ten milligrams per liter of
20 total nitrogen
to the groundwater. Whereas, your
21 typical wastewater coming
into a treatment plant or
22 what goes out of a septic field, may
have nitrogen
23 on the order of forty milligrams per liter. You
24 are reducing those nitrogen compounds in the
25
wastewater.
28
28
1 In
addition, we're providing removal of
2 bacterial contaminants
through ultraviolet
3 disinfection, which is a light that
radiates the
4 bacteria, that kills them before it goes into the
5 ground. Again, we're reaching the kind of levels
6 in our
discharge that are similar to what you see
7 in recreation areas,
ponds, lakes and streams that
8 allow bathing in. It is 200
colonies per 100 ML.
9 That is just to give you an idea of the
type of
10 treatment and level of treatment these facilities
11 will have.
12 In terms of what the facility looks
13 like, everyone has this thought that, you know,
14 you've got
huge open tanks and enormous smells,
15 that sort of thing.
16 The size of the facility that we are
17 talking about here
will most likely be housed
18 either in tanks that have covers or
in a building
19 that is covered. It gives us a couple of
benefits.
20 One, it's climate controlled so it allows us to
21 adjust easier to the weather conditions, the hot of
22 the
summer, the cold of the winter.
23 It also is giving us an
enclosed area.
24 If we have odors or anything, which don't
really
25 occur very often in well functioning facilities, it
29
29
1 gives us the ability to
trap those odors before
2 they are released into the air, then
filter them to
3 remove any of the odors and the like.
4 A
VOICE: This is the treatment plant
5 that you are talking about?
6 MR. BARKELY: Yes. There are two areas
7 that are considered
for the treatment facility.
8 The one that is identified as the
STP-1 site,
9 that's located behind the supermarket in town.
10 A VOICE: Can you point to that?
11 MR. BARKELY: Sure. It
is in this area
12 here. This, again, was Main Street, the lake.
But
13 it's behind the supermarket in town. There are
14
some constraints with that, that we're looking at.
15 We haven't
decided yet whether that is going to be
16 an appropriate
location or not.
17 So there is another site that's out
18
near the Elk's Club, that's identified on the map
19 here as site
number two. It is also an area that's
20 more open. There is a
lot more land area. It
21 doesn't appear to have as many
environmental
22 constraints, such as wetlands, stream
encroachment
23 and that sort of constraint. We're looking at
24 those two sites.
25 The pump station location is, as Mike
30
30
1 had said, behind the Main
Street area of town. The
2 pump station would be a collection
point where all
3 the wastewater from the sewer service area
would
4 flow. It is basically the low spot. You need to
5
try to economically collect as much wastewater as
6 you possibly
can through gravity flow pipes so you
7 don't have to pump.
Pumping means money,
8 maintenance, operation, that sort of
thing.
9 We identified that location as a
10 probable site
for that pump station because it is a
11 low elevation. So
basically the wastewater would
12 be collected from the Town
Center area to the pump
13 station, then pumped to wherever the
treatment
14 facility location is that we identified.
15
After the wastewater is treated it also
16 then gets pumped to
wherever our disposal area is.
17 So for now we're identifying
this area which is the
18 composition of both private land and
Green Acres
19 for that disposal.
20 I wanted to just
outline a little bit
21 about some disposal options that we're
22 considering. We're considering not only those on a
23 site
like this, but for any site that we are asked
24 to evaluate. We
look at primarily three modes of
25 discharge to the groundwater.
One is a subsurface
31
31
1
disposal, which is not unlike what you see for a
2 septic field,
where you've got piping below grades,
3 some stone. The water
distributes through the
4 ground and percolates into the
underlying ground
5 aquifer and the like.
6 The other one
is infiltration basins,
7 which are an open feature. They
probably look
8 somewhat similar to some of the detention basins
9 you see in neighborboohds for stormwater runoff.
10 There
will be water standing in there for a period
11 of time, usually
a brief period of time. Water
12 percolates into the ground. We
alternate flow, one
13 back to the other, so that they are not
being
14 continually being inundated with wastewater.
15
The third is a drip irrigation system.
16 Those are becoming more
and more common. There is
17 quite a number of them, as well as
all the other
18 type of facilities in this state and also in the
19 surrounding states in the Mid Atlantic area.
20 A drip
irrigation system consists of a
21 below grade irrigation system.
It's essentially
22 small diameter pipes that are knifed into the
23 ground through a vibratory type plow device. The
24 tubes
are typically a couple of feet apart. They
25 have little drip
emitters on them that basically
32
32
1 drip wastewater into the ground, regardless of what
2 the
pressure is that's being pumped out to those
3 facilities.
4 Drip irrigation, just like the
5 infiltration ponds for the
subsurface disposal, are
6 all going to be a series of systems,
zones or
7 disposal beds, for example, or disposal ponds.
8 Again, you try to have a redundancy in all of the
9 systems
that you are putting in. So that if you
10 have an issue with one
component you can do some
11 repairs on it, while you are still
managing your
12 wastewater flow, keeping your process running
while
13 that work is being done.
14 With a study area
like we're looking at
15 here, just, for example, we looked at
the entire
16 study area. We probably would only use half of it
17 for the wastewater beds, ponds or drip area. The
18 rest
of it would be areas that would be around the
19 buffer or
parameter, for example. Or dividing your
20 recharge areas, so
that you can have access for
21 equipment and that sort of thing.
22 To give you an idea of the clearing and
23 the type of
impact that you would see, infiltration
24 ponds in the
subsurface beds would require clearing
25 of whatever vegetation
is on the ground where those
33
33
1 beds are going to be.
2 You still could leave trees
in-between
3 them, depending on the spacing and that sort of
4 thing. Drip irrigation wouldn't require as much
5 clearing,
because those drip tubes don't require
6 disturbance of the
ground before they are put into
7 the ground.
8 Basically,
you knife these tubes in and
9 around the trees. You try to find
what open areas
10 are there. You rub out the undergrowth, the
scrubby
11 type material and you leave many of the more
12
prestine trees. Larger growth and select areas.
13 So you try to
minimize the disturbance with that
14 sort of a recharge system.
15 Just to go back again to permitting and
16 compliance, as
I said before, any analysis of the
17 site requires certain
parameters that have to be
18 tested for, permits applied for and
standards
19 followed that the DEP imposes. Tom will get into
20 that in just a moment.
21 Once the treatment facility or
the
22 disposal facility is in place, there is a
23
significant level of monitoring, operational
24 oversight and
management that have to go along with
25 those systems.
34
34
1 There is a requirement that a
licensed
2 operator be assigned to a facility. He has to have
3 certain educational requirements and abilities to
4 manage,
operate and make these wastewater treatment
5 facilities function
properly. There is monthly
6 sampling of effluent from the
treatment facility to
7 assure that the standards are being met.
8 There are stipulated penalties for not
9 meeting those
requirements. They could be from
10 exceeding flow. It could be
exceeding the discharge
11 parameter. It could be wastewater on
the ground
12 surface. It could be a pump that wasn't replaced
13 in a timely manner.
14 It could be for not reporting or
15 reporting something inaccurately, or anything like
16
that. It is a very onerous sort of process that
17 the DEP is
extremely picky with, that has to be
18 followed.
19 There
is a great deal of attention to
20 detail in doing that
monitoring and those
21 compliance requirements.
22 There
is also-- with a treatment
23 facility like this and a disposal
area, there has
24 to be contingency requirements that are on
record,
25 an emergency plan for both notification, if there
35
35
1 are any issues with power
outages, for example.
2 There is a standby generator, but if the
power goes
3 out your standby generators will pickup all the
4 power for this facility.
5 But you also need to have some
process
6 in place to make sure that the utility companies
7 know that if there are some widespread outages,
8 that a
treatment facility, for example, disposal
9 facility, needs to
have some priorities to get it
10 back up and operable, so there
is not a long
11 extensive period that they are out of utility
12 power.
13 So, again, you know, the type of
14
treatment is considerably higher than what is
15 associated with
septic systems, what is currently
16 being used to discharge all
the wastewater that's
17 generated in the middle of town.
18 There is a significant amount of
19 oversight. There is a
significant amount of
20 permitting requirements and standards
that have to
21 be met, as we go forward and try to assess both
22 this site and the Township as a whole, as we design
23 the
collection system, the treatment facility and
24 the like.
25 MR. MC CUE: Thank, you sir. I've got
36
36
1 just a couple of more slides. Then we're going to
2 open it up to comments-- I'm sorry, I apologize.
3 MR.
DWYER: Good evening. My name is
4 Tom Dwyer. I'm with Eastern Geo
Science. We're a
5 hydrogeologic consulting company that
specializes
6 in water supply and wastewater disposal
7
evaluations, for projects just like this.
8 As Greg mentioned,
there are quite
9 rigorous requirements that the State of New
Jersey
10 has that we have to address before they can issue a
11 permit to discharge water to the ground or to
12
groundwater. Specifically, the permitting
13 requirements fall
under what they call the New
14 Jersey Pollutant Discharge
Elimination System
15 Discharge to Groundwater permit. That
permit
16 application has specific requirements for the
17
hydrogeologic evaluation of the site.
18 That hydrogeologic
evaluation has to
19 address both the feasibility of the site,
it's
20 capability to accept the quantity of wastewater
21
that's being proposed. It also has to address what
22 the impacts
of that discharge would be.
23 I want to go through some of
those.
24 It's a little bit of a laundry list, please bear
25 with me. I just want to convey to you the types of
37
37
1 things that we have to look at and
the reasons why
2 we're looking at them.
3 There are
basically two things that
4 have to happen for a wastewater
disposal system or
5 discharge to groundwater system, to be
viable. The
6 first is, you have to be able to get the water into
7 the ground, so that the ground has to have what we
8 call
infiltration capacity that's sufficient for
9 the volume that's
being proposed.
10 That infiltration occurs in what we
11
call the unsaturated zone. So on a site like this,
12 that would
be the sand and gravel layers that don't
13 have water in them,
above the water table.
14 That unsaturated zone has to have the
15 capability to take the water at the proposed rate.
16
There is a very large factor of safety put on that
17 as well. We
evaluate the infiltration capacity, but
18 then we use five
percent or less of that capacity.
19 So there is a very large
factor of safety that's
20 put into that.
21 The second
thing that has to happen
22 once that water infiltrates and
reaches the water
23 table, it has to be able to go somewhere. If
it
24 can't move away from the site, we get what we call
25 a groundwater mound, which means the groundwater
38
38
1 level rises up underneath the disposal
area.
2 If that groundwater level rises up high
3 enough,
the disposal area is not going to function
4 properly or you are
going to get breakout at the
5 land surface. We can't have that
happen. It's not
6 permitted by the State and it wouldn't work.
7 So the evaluation, the hydrogeologic
8 evaluation, focuses
on evaluating infiltration
9 capacity and groundwater mounding,
to determine
10 capacity, capacity and viability of the system.
11 But that evaluation also is extended based on that
12
information that's gathered, to evaluate what the
13 impact of
the system would be on surrounding
14 properties.
15 The
things that we have to do, we have
16 to do a sufficient number
of test pits to
17 characterize that unsaturated zone. Then do
18 infiltration testing at test pit locations, to come
19 up
with the numbers that we need to size the
20 infiltration area.
21 We have to do a sufficient number of
22 soil borings
throughout the site to define the
23 types of subsurface
materials, how uniform they
24 are, their permeability, whether
or not there are
25 any restrictive layers that would interfere
with
39
39
1 the wastewater
disposal and the depth to
2 groundwater, particularly the
seasonal high water
3 level.
4 The permeability tests are
run in a
5 number of different ways in the infiltration area.
6 The intent is to define the variability in the
7 area, come
up with a conservative loading rate that
8 we know is going to
work in the long term. Pumping
9 tests are required from the test
wells that we put
10 in on the site.
11 This pumping test
allows us to
12 characterize the hydraulic properties of that
13 saturated zone. That information is then put into
14 the
groundwater mounding analysis. The State
15 requires us to do
this groundwater mounding
16 analysis to determine, first, that
the system is
17 going to function as intended. Also, to look at
18 impacts in the area, such as any impacts to nearby
19
wells, basements, stormwater basins, surface water
20 bodies,
wetland areas. We have to address all the
21 potential impacts.
22 We have to look at the groundwater flow
23 directions.
Again, that's related to looking at
24 those impact areas
surrounding the disposal site.
25 So there is a lot that goes
into
40
40
1 determining
whether or not a site is suitable,
2 whether or not it can be
done without adverse
3 impacts.
4 At this point we have
done a
5 preliminary screening of the site. We've put in a
6 number of test wells, a number of test pits, to
7 look at
the general characteristics. The work
8 that's been done to date
is not nearly what would
9 be done if this moves forward, to
submit a permit
10 application. There is a lot more involved, a
lot
11 more tests wells, a lot more testing on the site to
12 be required.
13 At this point we've identified that the
14 site does have favorable soil conditions for
15
infiltration. The saturated flow system has good
16 permeability
for moving that water out, that we
17 have good depth to water.
So that we have
18 sufficient room in that unsaturated zone for
19 groundwater mounding.
20 So what we know at this point is
that
21 this is a site, from a hydrogeologic standpoint,
22 that's worth investigating further. It has good
23 potential
for the type of capacity that the
24 Township is looking for.
25 MR. MC CUE: Thanks, Tom. Our
41
41
1 financial strategy for this redevelopment project
2
involves a number of different avenues. The Kokes
3 Corporation,
as the entity building age restricted
4 housing on the PRRC, will
make a contribution per
5 unit.
6 New Jersey American
Water is making a
7 contribution with respect to the water
aspects of
8 the infrastructure costs. There is this PILOT and
9 I'll go into detail on that in a second, about that
10
payment in lieu of taxes mechanism and what I call
11
stakeholder's contribution. So the people in the
12 downtown,
property owners will have
13 responsibilities with respect to
paying a
14 connection fee, then, obviously, user fees during
15 the operation of the system.
16 I want to basically say
that everybody
17 in the Township has, you know, a contribution
18 because we want this project to work. There are a
19
number of different aspects to this.
20 Again, I want to
indicate, the payment
21 in lieu of taxes, just explaining what
that is, it
22 is basically the mechanism within redevelopment
23 that allows the municipality, for an extended
24 period of
time, to collect taxes. The only
25 requirement is that they have
to pay for the
42
42
1
particular area that PILOT is applied to.
2 Only after they
submit five percent of
3 that to the County, the municipality has
the
4 ability to spend that as they want. So that's what
5
it can be used for.
6 What will the Plumsted Township
7
Committee use the money for? The Committee has
8 talked about it
in the past. Basically because
9 this is going to be a necessity
to take out bonds
10 to pay for this project and paying off the
bonds,
11 it will be providing money toward the downtown
12 infrastructure, with respect to landscaping and
13 things of
that nature.
14 It will also, in terms of the financial
15
strategy that we put together in the financial
16 model, again,
going back to Goldman Associates,
17 Neill Grossman, there will
be monies allocated for
18 emergency services, because of the
fact that we're
19 bringing in additional residents to the
Township.
20 That's going to be one of the impacts. Hopefully
21 there will be some money left over for the Township
22 to
use for other aspects.
23 So the major public needs and benefits
24 of this plan is that it reduces the economic
25 decline,
deterioration of the downtown, provides
43
43
1 new opportunities for businesses, restaurants and
2 things in the downtown.
3 For those businesses it provides
an
4 extended customer base, because the location of the
5
PRRC will be very close to the downtown, hopefully,
6 will be
able to have walkways for people to reach
7 the downtown from the
PRRC.
8 One big thing, we're going to be
9 cleaning up
Oakford Lake and Crosswicks Creek.
10 We're looking at a
significant increase in revenues
11 for the Township without an
impact with new school
12 age children, then providing the
infrastructure
13 that hopefully will provide us with a good
future.
14 I mentioned that we were talking about
15 an
affordable housing component. Everything up
16 until November of
last year, in regards to
17 affordable housing, had a very
significant impact
18 on anything you did in terms of increasing
jobs, or
19 anything you did in the Township had an affordable
20 housing component.
21 The Township had put together an
22 affordable housing plan, had submitted it when it
23 was
required to, to the Department of Community
24 Affairs for their
review. But right now everything
25 is on hold, both here in
Plumsted but also
44
44
1
statewide, because the state is looking at that
2 whole law.
3 The projected project timeline; we're
4 looking to complete
the design studies that Greg
5 and Tom were talking about,
prepare construction
6 documents and submit permit applications.
7 We're planning to apply for the NJEIT,
8 the New Jersery
Environmental Infrastructure Trust
9 Funding, by March of next
year and expect that
10 we'll have the money by the fall of 2011,
hopefully
11 start construction by 2012 or shortly thereafter
12 and start hookups and phase-in at that point.
13 A little
on the advertisements for the
14 MUA. If this wasn't enough for
us to be looking
15 at, we're also addressing, investigating,
potential
16 Township wide solid waste collection. The idea is
17 that we're identifying the possibility of at least
18
improving service at the same or a lower cost. So
19 that's what
we are looking at. It's just in the
20 investigation phase. There
is nothing that has
21 been set in stone.
22 We're also
looking-- to which we
23 haven't done anything on, our energy
projects that
24 would benefit the Township.
25 All right.
Now you guys get to speak.
45
45
1 What I'm going to do is just take a minute to get
2 the
list and then call everybody up in order. At
3 this point I'm not
setting a time limit. I would
4 ask that you would be brief in
your comments.
5 Again, there is the opportunity to submit
written
6 comments up until two weeks from today, July 13th.
7 You know, you can make comments here and also
8 submit
written comments later. It will all be part
9 of the public
record.
10 I would ask if you come up to make a
11
comment, even though we are going to read your name
12 and
address, I would ask everyone, even if we call
13 your name and
address, when you come up state your
14 name and your address so
we can have it.
15 MS. WILCOX: Can you please put the map
16 back up, can you please do that?
17 MR. MC CUE: Which map?
18 MS. WILCOX: The one with the STP site
19 one and site two.
20 MR. MC CUE: I've just been told we
21 have thirty-one
people that signed up to give a
22 comment. I would ask that if
everyone could be as
23 brief as possible, limit it to five
minutes.
24 MS. HENDRICKSON: Robert Moss.
25 MR. MOSS: My
name is Robert Moss from
46
46
1 Bloomfield. I'm a member of the Sierra Club. At
2 this point I
do not have a position in the New
3 Jersey Chapter of the Sierra
Club. However, I was
4 the only one available to come tonight.
5 I have a couple of comments, just brief
6 comments, on a
clarification on when the diversion
7 started. What we're calling
now a major diversion
8 didn't start in 2006, but I think, as far
as I
9 know, the present regulations started in 2006, went
10 into effect in 2006. Diversions were done before
11 that,
notably Atlantic-Cape May Community College.
12 The other thing I
just wanted to
13 comment on, age restrictions, if they are done
by
14 age limit and housing, if it is done by deed
15
restrictions-- is that what it is called, deed
16 restrictions--
they do not run with the land.
17 I'm not an attorney, but you
should
18 check with your own attorneys on that. They are
19 not necessarily permanent. Because there is a lot
20 of
mention of no school children out of this, so
21 you have to
watch that.
22 Now, as far as the project itself, I
23
heard a lot of details about the impact of the
24 chosen site.
What I haven't heard, what I don't
25 see here, is any extended
discussion of why there
47
47
1
is no other place in the entire Township, let's say
2 excluding
Fort Dix maybe, where this can't be done.
3 I would expect, as
part of your
4 application to DEP when it gets more formal, that
5 there would be maps showing where the aquifer is.
6 I'm not
a geologist, but showing the soil types and
7 all the
characteristics that would affect whether
8 the site is viable or
not.
9 It is just striking to me that there is
10 just
very little detail gone into about why there
11 are no other
sites in the Township. Also, when
12 that's made available, I
would expect that to be
13 made available to the public. I don't
have prior
14 experience with these applications. But that's the
15 most important thing that I see to me now.
16 Of course,
the replacement you aren't
17 started with yet. That's something
that would be
18 watched very carefully. Thank you.
19 MR.
MC CUE: Thank you, next.
20 MS. HENDRICKSON: Gary Jensen.
21 MR. JENSEN: My name is Gary Jensen. I
22 live in the Woodland
Manor development, at 323
23 Warwick Drive. I'd like to make a
statement, then
24 pose a few questions, to gain a better
25 understanding of the proposed diversion.
48
48
1 My family settled here in Plumsted in
2
2002, after an extensive search for an environment
3 for clean
and open spaces. I'm here today to speak
4 against this proposal
to divert Green Acres land
5 for the purpose of an 840,000 gallon
a day
6 wastewater discharge site. This is an incredible
7
quantity of wastewater in dangerously close
8 proximity to the
homes in Woodland Manor, as well
9 as to our surrounding
communities.
10 I believe the effect that this quantity
11
of treated sewage will have on our drinking water,
12 the quality
of our air and our ever rising water
13 tables, will be
disastrous. The proposed diversion
14 will greatly impact the
value of our homes and the
15 quality of our lives here in this
Township.
16 My neighbors and I, our families and
17
children, are not interested in making these
18 sacrifices for
the purpose of redevelopment. We
19 are also unwilling to risk
our wildlife and give up
20 our recreation and open space
inventory.
21 These properties were purchased with
22
Green Acres funds, with the intent to maintain,
23 protect and
preserve the natural and rural
24 environment and not to provide
a method of sewage
25 removal.
49
49
1 My questions are, what are the
2 compelling public
needs that this diversion
3 fulfills? What hazards to public
health and safety
4 will be resolved?
5 I'll just continue
with my questions
6 then.
7 MR. MC CUE: Yes.
8 MR.
JENSEN: Why is sending sewage to
9 Crosswicks Creek or existing
treatment plants in
10 Wrightstown or Fort Dix, not being
pursued? I
11 heard mentioned that we could not use these areas.
12 But I don't feel that actual reasons were
13 provided. I'd
like to know what those reasons
14 are?
15 I also heard
mention that the DEP had
16 issue with Crosswicks Creek, yet you
would impose
17 upon open spaces and argue for its diversion. How
18 will Green Acres be compensated for these diverted
19
lands? Will open space funds or will taxpayer
20 dollars be used
to replace these green lands that
21 will be diverted? Why was
this--
22 MR. BRONSON: I'd like to respond. A lot
23 of
the numbers that you are quoting are
24 misrepresentations that's
kind of circulated
25 through the Township.
50
50
1 MR. JENSEN: What numbers would they
2 be?
3 MR. BRONSON: The 840,000 gallons per
4 day.
5 MR. JENSEN: I think these are valid
6 numbers.
7 MR.
BRONSON: We don't know yet.
8 MR. JENSEN: I think we should know,
if
9 it is being imposed upon us as nearby residences.
10
It appears to me, from all the literature that I
11 have read,
that it is 840,000 gallons of wastewater
12 that is planned for
this discharge site. If that's
13 not correct then the public
should know about it.
14 What precisely will it be? If it, in
fact, is less
15 than that, why aren't other sites being
considered?
16 MS. WELSH: He's waiting for an answer;
17
right?
18 MR. JENSEN: I would like an answer.
19 Otherwise
I would just like to make my questions
20 posed.
21 MR. MC
CUE: We'll have an answer on
22 the record.
23 MS. WELSH:
When will that be that
24 we'll hear it? Where is this answer on
the record
25 going to be?
51
51
1 MR. MC CUE: It will be submitted to
2 the DEP.
3 MS. WELSH: We're not the DEP. In
4 other words, we'll not
have any access to it. Is
5 the DEP going to ask the same
questions he's
6 asking? I thought that's what the town meeting
was
7 about, so we could get our questions answered.
8
(Pause in proceedings).
9 I'm sorry, Theresa Welsh.
10 MR.
JENSEN: So I guess we'll wait to
11 hear from the DEP to hear
about these answers? I
12 would imagine it will be incumbent upon
our elected
13 officials to provide us with that information. I
14 could be wrong.
15 The last comment that I made, it was
16 mentioned that the DEP had an issue with Crosswicks
17
Creek and yet you would impose upon open spaces and
18 argue for
its diversion. Why aren't we arguing for
19 Crosswicks Creek? Why
is that not a viable
20 solution with the DEP? Why was this site
tested
21 and analyzed knowing it was not available for this
22 purpose?
23 What is the possible-- is it possible
24 that the actual sewage plant will be located at the
25
discharge site once this diversion is approved? I
52
52
1 understand that there are two sites. It
looks like
2 they are located in the downtown area.
3 I
can tell you from experience, I have
4 lived in a nearby
location, a location that had a
5 very sophisticated closed
sewage plant. I'm here
6 to tell you that even with the
controlled
7 environment, the smell was foul and overpowering at
8 times.
9 I also heard mention that the sewers--
10
that sewers being provided in the downtown will be
11 provided
without raising taxes. Are you saying
12 that the taxpayers will
not be encumbered by this
13 redevelopment investment?
14
I'd also like to know what is the
15 entire investment of this
redevelopment plan? What
16 is the percentage that the taxpayers
will be
17 responsible for?
18 Finally, I would just
strongly urge all
19 of our neighbors to write to the New Jersey
20 Department of Environmental Protection and let them
21
know that we are against this diversion. An
22 alternate method
must be pursued, one that does not
23 impose harm or detriment to
any community or Green
24 Acres property for the sake of
redevelopment.
25 Thank you.
53
53
1 MS. HENDRICKSON: Christine Eggert.
2 MS. EGGERT: Good
evening. My name is
3 Christine Eggert. I live in Woodland Manor.
My
4 address is 320 Warwick Drive, Plumsted Township,
5
New Jersey.
6 To continue from my fellow neighbor,
7 there
are some really good reasons why this land
8 was preserved in the
first place. There are a
9 tremendous amount of wetlands here. If
you walk
10 the area that is proposed, you will see that red
11 flags have already been inserted to delineate
12 wetlands
adjacent to the proposed project site.
13 However, standing water
remains present and visible
14 since the spring rains, only
five-hundred feet
15 away. Many unique species of plants and
animals
16 live in this area which need our protection to
17 survive.
18 By clearing this protected acreage to
19
now install a treated sewage groundwater discharge
20 site, would
adversely affect the habitat of some of
21 these living things
and then result in a travesty
22 to our environment, community
and national
23 reputation as a national model.
24 The
Department of Environmental
25 Protection needs to do a
comprehensive analysis of
54
54
1 the current-day wetland topography, and also an
2 inventory
of the plants and animals in this area to
3 determine the
viability of this project.
4 Plumsted residents have septic
systems
5 and well water. A copy of the original PMUA press
6 release of January 22nd, 2010 states in paragraph
7 one,
that there is, quote, "the potential of
8 recharging up to
844,000 gallons per day of treated
9 wastewater", end quote.
10 Have you considered that over a period
11 of time it could
reach and contaminate the drinking
12 water of local residents,
specifically first, those
13 residents who only have single case
wells?
14 This is because when the treated water
15 hits
the marl, which does exist in the surrounding
16 area of the
projected site, it will not absorb, but
17 instead runoff in the
direction of the natural
18 water flows.
19 Quoted from
the Florida Cooperative
20 Extension Service, Food and
Agricultural Sciences
21 web site of the University of Florida,
it states in
22 quotes, "drainage of marl soils is poor or very
23 poor", end quote.
24 Woodland Manor residents in the
25 proposed project area have been experiencing
55
55
1 flooded basements during recent storms. An
2 increase in groundwater will artificially raise the
3 water
table and contribute to additional flooding
4 issues at the
proposed discharge site.
5 At least one resident was told by Mr.
6 Peter Ylvisaker that it may be "one million gallons
7 a
day", end quote. It's very important for us to
8 ask about the
quality of the water as well, that
9 will be discharged. Will it
be guaranteed as being
10 pure by the Township and DEP?
11
When individuals take necessary
12 prescription drugs, the drugs
cannot be separated
13 from the rest of the treated water and is
released
14 into the ground contaminating it.
15 I cite
the USA Today article on March
16 10th, 2008. Which states,
quote, in paragraph six,
17 "most Americans probably think they
have a good
18 idea of what's being detected in their water.
19 Federal law requires water providers to distribute
20
annual consumer confidence reports that reveal
21 levels of
regulated contaminants. Providers are
22 not, however, required
to tell people if they find
23 a contaminant that is not on the
US Environmental
24 Protection Agency list. There are no
25 pharmaceuticals on the EPA list", end quote.
56
56
1 Also, a most current article on April
2
20th, 2010 from the US Environmental Protection
3 Agency web
site, listed under the heading of
4 pharmaceuticals and PCP or
personal care products,
5 states, quote, "the Resource,
Conservation and
6 Recovery Act does not regulate any household
waste,
7 which includes medications and pharmaceutical
8
wastes generated in a household", end quote.
9 This means that a
household septic
10 system itself can handle low volumes of
11 pharmaceuticals and prescription drugs by
12 individuals
in that household, as compared to a
13 larger discharge area that
flows the water out to
14 other residing locations.
15 If
you have not-- I'm sorry. You have
16 not stated exactly where
the sewage treatment plant
17 is actually going to be built and
how the piping
18 from there to the discharge location will be
done.
19 Next statement, since the financial
20 strategy
for the redevelopment plan includes
21 monetary contributions
from the senior citizen
22 residents and connection fees from the
downtown
23 residents, as taxpayers we will also contribute to
24 this.
25 All proposed connection fee amounts to
57
57
1 this proposed discharge
location and the location,
2 possibly of Fort Dix, needs to be
released to all
3 Plumsted residents.
4 Next point, most
senior citizens are
5 living these days with their children and
raising
6 their grandchildren. With a possible increase in
7 residents per senior citizen complex units, our
8 school
system will increase because of the way the
9 economy is today,
and so will the amount of sewage
10 produced per unit. Hopefully
this has been
11 considered.
12 Next point, where will the
two acres of
13 comparable land for every one acre diverted come
14 from? In this economy land is now very expensive
15 to
purchase. Some taxpayers will be purchasing--
16 since taxpayers
will be purchasing this replacement
17 land, as we did back in
2002, where will the money
18 come from?
19 We purchased
homes here with the
20 promise that nothing would be developed
around or
21 in the farmland preserved Green Acres or ROSI
22 designated areas. We came here to live in the
23 woods, in
solitude with nature, away from busy
24 towns, traffic, noise. We
shouldn't be looking for
25 a short term resolution, but instead
a long term
58
58
1 resolution
that will assist everyone, even
2 downtown.
3 I haven't
heard too much about Fort
4 Dix. Fort Dix needs to be seriously
considered due
5 to its proximity with downtown New Egypt.
6 This project was not discussed
7 previously with the
Woodland Manor Homeowners
8 Association, its residents or other
local residents
9 in this area. A perfect example of this is a
10 January 22, 2010 press release, which was not
11
circulated to residents door to door, nor through
12 the US
Postal Service.
13 Mayor Dancer, in fact, has told a
14
couple of Woodland Manor residents who are in this
15 room this
evening, that he would not want this in
16 his backyard. They
heard it from him directly.
17 Both Mayor Dancer and Deputy Mayor
18 Leutwyler have told residents not to worry because
19 this
project would never go in this location. They
20 told him that
directly.
21 When something like this is directly
22 said
by an elected official, who we voted into
23 office and then is
contradicted by actions, we are
24 justly concerned.
25
This is the first public hearing with
59
59
1 the residents of Plumsted Township and the Woodland
2
Manor Homeowners Association. Full disclosure and
3 more
discussion needs to be exchanged before
4 anything further is
done on this property.
5 However, if this is true, from Mr. Mc
6 Cue's e-mail to Christine and Douglas Rig over the
7 past
month that, quote, "in your e-mail, sir, the
8 Lakewood site is
being considered as our last
9 choice, not first", end quote,
then why are we
10 wasting our time with taxpayer money having
this
11 briefing at all?
12 We the residents and taxpayers
of
13 Plumsted Township appreciate this venue to address
14 some of our concerns and urge you all to really
15 take these
and other concerns presented tonight, to
16 heart before
proceeding any further.
17 Everyone in the New Egypt vicinity is
18 aware of the sewage issue currently affecting
19 residents
and businesses in the downtown area.
20 Something should be done,
but something else can be
21 done if you investigate other
alternatives like
22 Fort Dix. Thank you very much for your time.
23 MR. MC CUE: I want to make sure we
24 give everybody an
opportunity to make a comment.
25 While I understand the last
speaker's, you know,
60
60
1
wanting to put her comments on the record, I would
2 ask if you
have something written down, please send
3 it to us and we'll
include it in the record and
4 just make a brief comment. Again,
my only point is
5 to allow--we've got thirty-one and I'm sure
there
6 are other people that might want to say something.
7 I want to make sure there is enough
8 time so that everyone
can get up here and make
9 their comments.
10 MS.
HENDRICKSON: Kerry Jensen.
11 MS. JENSEN: My name is Kerry
Jensen.
12 I'm a resident of Plumsted Township. I live with
13 my family at the Woodland Manor development at 323
14
Warwick Drive. I am not a public speaker. But I
15 am here to
urge you to turn down the proposed
16 amendment to the Plumsted
Township Recreational and
17 Open space Inventory for Block 43,
Lots 38, 40 and
18 45, for the purposes of serving as a
groundwater
19 discharge site for treated wastewater from the
20 Lakewood Redevelopment Project in New Egypt.
21 Leaving
this Green Acres property as a
22 natural site, is for the
greater good of our
23 community. We should not alter or
compromise our
24 commitment as a community to preserving open
space
25 through the Green Acres Program for the convenience
61
61
1 of other projects.
2 Before I can submit my written comments
3 to the Department of
Environmental Protection I
4 need responses to the following
questions. Has
5 there been an environmental impact study
conducted
6 for the site that you are presently seeking to
7 remove for recreational open space inventory? If
8 there
has, who has it been by and in what year was
9 it conducted? Has
there been an inventory of
10 threatened and endangered species
conducted for
11 this area? What alternate modern handling
12 techniques for this volume of wastewater were
13 explored
prior to settling on this alternative?
14 I do not believe that
they were clearly
15 addressed in the presentation. How many
acres of
16 excavation are being planned for this site? Will
17 it be limited to only fifty acres or will it
18 encompass
a great deal more that is not being
19 stated? What will the
wastewater be treated with?
20 How safe are these chemicals to
the wildlife in our
21 surrounding community and to the
drinkability of
22 our well water?
23 I encourage my
neighbors to also speak
24 their minds and state their opinions,
to come up
25 and be heard if they agree with these statements.
62
62
1 Thank you.
2 MS.
HENDRICKSON: Dominick Cuozzo.
3 MR. CUOZZO: Hello, my name is
4 Dominick Cuozzo. I live at 98 Lakewood Road--
5
C-u-o-z-z-o.
6 I'm new to the area. The property that
7
you are looking at, site number two, is actually
8 right
across--I'm the new pastor of the Bible
9 Baptist Church. We own
eight acres up the way
10 there.
11 I was wondering, I
have a very specific
12 question. I'd really like it if you can
answer my
13 question, at least generally. But the difference
14 between site number one and site number two, I
15 know--
well, for one thing it is good to have two
16 sites. Site number
one is privately owned; right?
17 MR. MC CUE: For the sewage
treatment
18 plant?
19 MR. CUOZZO: The STP site.
20
MR. MC CUE: Yes.
21 MR. CUOZZO: The question was asked by
22 them, why have a secondary site? It is because site
23 number
one is privately owned. If you don't have a
24 secondary site the
price doubles. If we're going
25 on this saving money you have to
have a secondary
63
63
1 site.
Obviously, the price will be lower by having
2 two sites.
3 In the secondary site there is going to
4 be a huge difference
for getting--I mean, the pump
5 station is going to be different,
the piping has to
6 be different. Has any of that been looked at
is my
7 only question? Obviously, you have two sites, but
8 obviously, they are not equal, just because they
9 are a
distance from the pump station. And the cost
10 of acquiring--
you know what I mean? There is a
11 number on site number one and
site number two, have
12 you-- what's the difference?
13
MR. MC CUE: Again, site number one was
14 our desired initial
site. It is being investigated
15 from a suitability point of
view by our engineer,
16 to determine whether if it-- again, it
has to do
17 with size of the site, buffers, because it is very
18 close to Crosswicks Creek.
19 There are a number of
constraints that
20 they need to investigate and to determine
whether
21 it will be suitable. The reasoning you are saying
22 is not a factor, in regards--
23 MR. CUOZZO: It is all
based on
24 suitability?
25 MR. MC CUE: Suitability.
64
64
1 MR. CUOZZO: If site number
one was
2 suitable Plan B doesn't go into action?
3 MR. MC
CUE: Right. If it's not
4 suitable--
5 MR. CUOZZO: When
are we going to
6 know?
7 MR. MC CUE: What, in about six
months
8 or three months?
9 MR. YLVISAKER: Two to three
months.
10 MR. CUOZZO: Obviously, everyone in the
11
homeowners development is my neighbor, the property
12 there. We
are all concerned about site number
13 two. We kind of need to
know which direction it
14 goes before any of our opinions really
matter.
15 Obviously, all the concerns that everyone has are
16 on both sites. It is a big difference between site
17
number one and number two. We would probably like
18 to express
our views after that decision is made,
19 do you know what I'm
saying?
20 MR. MC CUE: I understand.
21 MR. CUOZZO: Will
we have an
22 opportunity to do that?
23 MR. MC CUE: The
purpose of this
24 hearing has to do with the groundwater
discharge
25 areas, all right. Every meeting we have in the MUA
65
65
1 we discuss these things.
Everyone is free to come
2 and express their opinions as to what
we're looking
3 at. But, again, the purpose of this scoping--
this
4 hearing, has to do with the Green Acres properties
5 at the groundwater discharge study area.
6 MR. CUOZZO: Thanks
for answering my
7 questions.
8 THE CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
9 MS. HENDRICKSON: John O'Connor.
10 MR. O'CONNOR: I'm John
O'Connor, 9
11 Galaxy Court in Jackson. I've been a property
12 owner and a business owner in New Egypt since
13 1981.
I've been to several meetings before, in
14 which many of the
alternatives that were overruled
15 or eventually discarded were
discussed.
16 I've been aware of the need for sewers
17 in
the downtown New Egypt area for as long as I've
18 been a
property owner and business owner. I
19 respect the passion and
the concerns that people
20 are expressing. I suspect that those
questions
21 will be answered through the licensure process.
22 But I want to speak in favor of the need for sewers
23 for
downtown and the severe need for infrastructure
24 improvement.
25 MS. HENDRICKSON: Marc Fenimore.
66
66
1 MR. FENIMORE: Good evening. My name is
2 Marc
Fenimore. I live at 309 Warwick Drive in
3 Woodland Manor.
4 Pretty much they've already covered the
5 things that I've
asked about. What I did find
6 interesting in your power point
presentation is
7 when you got to the screen where it said Fort
Dix,
8 you never mentioned a word.
9 MR. MC CUE: And I
apologize.
10 MR. FENIMORE: However, you did say
11 that
fifty percent of your township is covered by
12 that military
establishment; correct?
13 MR. MC CUE: Yes.
14 MR.
FENIMORE: Have we looked into any
15 federal funds that help us
out with this situation,
16 or have we asked the military or
anybody along this
17 line, what they can do to possibly take
some of the
18 burden from us?
19 MR. MC CUE: What I'll
do, I'll
20 apologize for skipping over that. I did want to
21 cover and explain why we did not pursue the Fort
22 Dix
or-- pardon me. It is not a viable option for
23 us at this point
in time.
24 We have had numerous discussions with
25 the
County and military in regards to that. Again,
67
67
1 when I say County, Ocean County is involved
with us
2 and they have been involved with the Joint Base
3 Alignment Commission, that has to do with the three
4 bases
being brought together and the impacts on the
5 municipalities
that surround it.
6 There is a study--what we found out--
7 again, getting information out of the government is
8 not
exactly the easiest thing-- any government for
9 that matter, is
not the easiest thing. I'm sure
10 everybody feels that way right
now. But we
11 basically found out that they have problems with
12 their system. They may have some capacity problems
13 that
they have to address.
14 The County is right now pursuing a two
15 year study to see if surrounding municipalities can
16
take advantage of that system--pardon me, a study
17 with respect
to that system and what kind of
18 upgrades would be necessary
for the surrounding
19 municipalities to take advantage of that
system.
20 That study hasn't started yet. It is a
21 two
year study. One of the factors that we are
22 looking at in
regards to providing sewer service to
23 the downtown, many of
the options are or could be
24 viable options years from now.
25 For example, the shared service with
68
68
1 the adjoining areas, that might be a viable option
2 five years from now. I don't think we can wait.
3 That's
why Fort Dix was basically taken off the
4 table.
5 MR.
FENIMORE: Okay, thank you, it will
6 take five years.
7
MS. HENDRICKSON: Emile De Vito.
8 MR. DE VITO: Good evening.
Thank you
9 very much for the opportunity to speak. My name is
10 Emile De Vito. I'm the Manager of Science with the
11 New
Jersey Conservation Alliance.
12 For fifty years we've been
promoting
13 the protection of land through the Green Acres
14 Program, supporting Green Acres bond issues and
15
farmland preservation bond issues.
16 We want to congratulate
Plumsted for
17 having preserved so much farmland and protected
so
18 much land over the years, through the use of all of
19 those public dollars that come from people all over
20 New
Jersey, and, of course, your own residents
21 here.
22 The
Green Acres diversion rules are a
23 major hurdle. We would
advise against trying to
24 divert this parkland.
25 There
is a lot of detail in all the
69
69
1 Green Acres rules. I just want to go over a couple
2 of
things to make everyone aware, of some of the
3 real hurdles you
are facing.
4 The Green Acres diversion rules protect
5
not just threatened and endangered species on
6 already protected
parkland, they also protect rare
7 species. That's a very
significant hurdle.
8 Threatened and endangered species, you
9 know, if you just throw a dart at the map of New
10 Jersey
you don't usually land on one. But when you
11 are talking about
rare species, these are also
12 defined in the DEP rules as
special concerned
13 species. There are numerous special
concerned
14 species all over Plumsted.
15 You probably
have them on those parcels
16 you are proposing for diversion.
The rules say that
17 the diversion may be denied if the DEP
determines
18 that it will have a significant adverse impact,
19 including fragmentation on a documented occurrence,
20 of
a threatened, endangered or rare species. Not
21 just T and E,
but also rare. That throws in a
22 whole pile of other species
you are much more
23 likely to find.
24 Now, it is public
land and people have
25 access to the land, anybody. It is very
easy to
70
70
1 find these rare
species, because there are a lot of
2 them. This is not a
developer's land that's held in
3 secret somewhere that you can't
find out what
4 species live there. Therefore, you can never
5 comment on what kind of habitat you are destroying.
6 So
it's very easy and you should be
7 doing it, determining how many
rare species you
8 have so you can make the case to the
Department,
9 whether or not you are actually impacting the
10 habitat of a special concerned or rare species,
11 which
you probably are.
12 The rules say that you determine the
13 ratio, whether it is a public development or
14 private
development, two to one or four to one, in
15 a pre-application
meeting with the Green Acres
16 Program. I would imagine that you
have done that.
17 And that Green Acres has made the
determination
18 that this is a public development or public
19 diversion process as opposed to one primarily to
20 serve
a private project.
21 Certainly the New Jersey Conservation
22 Foundation is going to question that determination
23 with
the Green Acres Program. Because having seen
24 that there are
going to be 300 and some odd houses
25 built, the revitalization
of all of sorts of
71
71
1
private properties, not publicly owned properties
2 or public
facilities, but there is a significant
3 private component to
this project.
4 We think the ratio should be four to
5
one. We're going to take that up with Green
6 Acres. It seems
from the rules that Green Acres
7 has given you, the advice, that
they are asking for
8 a two to one ratio. We think they should be
asking
9 for a four to one ratio.
10 If it is primarily or
substantially a
11 private project, than we question the whole
idea
12 that there is a compelling public need. We're very
13 concerned that we haven't heard much about
14
alternatives. This site that's proposed for the
15 diversion, I
think it has about thirty acres, has
16 particular soils, depth
to water table, and all of
17 those qualities that the consultant
was describing
18 earlier. I would like to see the GIS map of the
19 entire town showing all the other properties that
20 has
those same properties.
21 Because then we can see how many other
22 privately owned properties that you could acquire
23
without having to divert parkland, would also
24 qualify having
the same infiltration rates,
25 recharge rates and distance from
wetlands, all of
72
72
1 those
other properties, because I think there must
2 be some others.
3 Finally, just a word about the
4 replacement land which we
know nothing about. You
5 can't use open space money to buy it.
You have to
6 use tax dollars that are not dedicated to open
7 space acquisition. That's in the rules.
8 So you have to
use regular tax revenues
9 to buy the replacement land at either
a two to one
10 or four to one ratio. That has to be equivalent
11 land. Not just in terms of monetary value, but
12 also in
terms of accessibility, recreation value.
13 It is going to be
uplands, so it is going to be
14 very expensive.
15 It
seems to me if you should just find
16 thirty acres-- if you are
actually going to do this
17 project and infiltrate wastewater
someplace, it is
18 going to be a lot cheaper to find thirty
acres in
19 town, that you don't have to you to go at a two to
20 one or four to one ratio, that you don't have to
21 worry
about rare species that are already protected
22 by the Green
Acres rules.
23 That way you won't be spending tax
24
dollars on replacement land over and above what you
25 really
need to spend. I would really encourage you
73
73
1 to look at all of those things. Thank you very
2 much.
3 MS. HENDRICKSON: James Fredrich.
4 MR.
FREDRICH: Good evening. My name is
5 James Fredrich. I live at
166 West Millstream
6 Road. I have a letter here from Strauss &
7 Associates, Planners, dated March 10th, 2003. It
8 was
addressed to my father, Russell Fredrich. He
9 was the owner of
Lot 38 and Lot 40.
10 The letter says: "On behalf of my
11
client the Township of Plumsted, I am pleased to
12 present the
following proposal to purchase your
13 property. The purpose of
purchasing those two lots
14 are as follows. As a municipal
corporation of the
15 State of New Jersey, Township of Plumsted
intends
16 to acquire the subject property exclusively for the
17 preservation of habitat, for the protection of
18 water
quality and for passive recreation use".
19 Let me say that
again, "for the
20 protection of water quality". Now the Township
21 wants to turnaround and use it to dump water out
22 there
on. The Township was the one that encouraged
23 him to sell it
for these purposes. To me that's a
24 stab in the back.
25
I've been a Township resident for
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74
1 seventy years. I was instrumental in getting my
2 dad
to do this. Now the Township wants to take it
3 over and do
something else with it. That's wrong,
4 that's morally wrong.
5 You may be able to legally do this and
6 you may be able to
get away with it, but it is
7 still wrong. I hope every person in
this Township
8 remembers it when it comes November.
9
Another thing, I've lived on Millstream
10 Road for seventy
years. I know that land. I know
11 the water table. If you put
more water up there in
12 that woods you are going to raise the
water table,
13 I don't care what your engineers say. What they
14 propose to do with the water tables and everything,
15 if
engineers knew anything about water tables.
16 Take a ride down
West Millstream Road in front of
17 the Crieger's residence, the
yard is a pond most of
18 the time when it rains.
19
Engineers approved these projects.
20 What happens, they don't
work. Just like this here
21 project. Who said it is going to
work, some
22 engineer? That's all I've got to say, thank you.
23 MS. HENDRICKSON: Mayor Dancer.
24 MAYOR DANCER: I'm not
sure if the mic
25 has really been on. I wanted to follow-up
after my
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75
1 friend Jim,
because I remember speaking at the time
2 the Township was
looking to preserve part of that
3 property. So earlier today I
prepared to submit to
4 the MUA and to the DEP as part of the
written
5 record, the following:
6 With regard to the
public hearing to
7 request an amendment to the Township's--by
the way,
8 my name is Ron Dancer, 216 Aimee's Way, New Egypt.
9 With regard to the public hearing to
10 request an
amendment to the Township's recreation
11 and open space
inventory, which is the ROSI that we
12 hear from time to time
that term, for the purpose
13 of possibly removing an estimated
thirty acres
14 known as Block 43, Lots 38 and 40, approximately
15 14.8 acres and a portion of Block 43, Lot 45,
16
approximately fifteen acres, I submitted my
17 personal comments
and advise that the governing
18 body of the Plumsted Township
Committee has not
19 taken a formal position on this proposal.
20 A review of the regulatory process set
21 forth in the New
Jersey Administrative Code and
22 that's in 507:36, sets forth
the application
23 procedures and requires an initial public
scoping
24 hearing prior to submitting a pre-application,
25 which is being done tonight. That's the point in
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76
1 time we are.
2 Following the first
public hearing the
3 MUA may submit a pre-- what is known as a
4 pre-application to the State's Green Acres
5 program. If
submitted, the pre-application will be
6 reviewed and then a
final application. So there is
7 a pre-application and then there
is a final
8 application.
9 A final application may only
be
10 submitted if authorized by the State Green Acres
11
Program. In the event the State authorizes the MUA
12 to submit a
final application and the State
13 determines that the
application is complete, the
14 MUA most hold public hearing
number two.
15 If the MUA continues the application
16
process after public hearing number two, the MUA
17 will be
required to submit to the State additional
18 post hearing
information at least seventy-five days
19 prior to the date of
the Statehouse Commission
20 public hearing.
21 At this
time the final application is
22 considered for approval or
disapproval. It is at
23 this point in the process, prior to the
final
24 application being submitted to the Commissioner of
25 the Statehouse Commission, that as part of the
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77
1 required submittals there will need to
be an
2 official resolution adopted by the governing body,
3 that is the Township Committee, after the Township
4
Committee holds what would be public hearing number
5 three,
reaffirming the MUA's request for approval
6 of it final
application for diversion of the thirty
7 acres on the Township
ROSI.
8 Please note the following: If the State
9
authorizes the process to continue with a final
10 application
submittal to the Commissioner the
11 Statehouse Commission, the
Township Committee,
12 after holding public hearing number three,
may or
13 may not, depending upon all information available
14 at that time, do an official resolution to reaffirm
15 the
MUA's request.
16 The ultimate decision to either approve
17 or disapprove will be made by the Commissioner of
18 the
Statehouse Commission.
19 Now, having set forth the procedural
20 requirements at this point in time for a resolution
21
from the governing body, I would submit my personal
22 concerns.
Again, I emphasize these are personal,
23 they haven't been a
position of the Township
24 Committee. But it kind of relates
back to what Jim
25 Fredrich has said and what I believe that
many
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78
1 others of you in
this room have probably heard from
2 me over the past twenty
years.
3 I am personally opposed to using our
4 preserved
lands that are on the official ROSI, for
5 the proposed use of
serving as a groundwater
6 discharge site for treated wastewater.
Until
7 recently I was not aware of what is known as a
8
diversion process.
9 For the past twenty years I have
10
advocated for land preservation programs and
11 personally
informed the public that preserved land
12 would remain in its
natural state in perpetuity.
13 Just like I did, Jim, your dad.
14 In particular, in 1998 and again in the
15 year 2005 when
the Township Committee authorized
16 the ballot questions seeking
the voters support to
17 establish our dedicated trust fund for
land
18 preservation, I personally-- this is why-- this is
19 just personally me. This is not the Township
20 Committee.
21 I personally informed the public that
22 the preserved
land would remain in its natural
23 state forever. Further, the
ballot question
24 language used the term "exclusively". I
believe,
25 Jim, that was a term that also you had used and
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79
1 appeared there.
2
That was on the ballot in 1998 and the
3 year 2005, that the
lands that are in preservation
4 would remain permanently to be
used exclusively for
5 preservation purposes.
6 Just two
following paragraphs here.
7 During the past twenty years,
countless individuals
8 have contacted me about purchasing or
building
9 their homes in areas of our Township near preserved
10 land. I have represented to them that preserved
11 lands
would remain in their natural state, not
12 aware of the
diversion process until recently,
13 earlier this year, when our
Township attorney
14 pointed out to us that there was a diversion
15 process.
16 While I have made and will continue to
17 honor my personal commitments for preserved lands
18 to remain
in a natural state, I support providing
19 downtown with sewer
service.
20 I will continue working with our
21 Municipal
Utilities Authority Board members to
22 achieve that goal in a
manner compatible with
23 preserving our environment, while not
compromising
24 our quality of life.
25 MS. HENDRICKSON:
Miguel Garces.
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80
1 MR. MC
CUE: After Miguel we are going
2 to take about a ten, fifteen
minute break. So
3 Miguel, why don't you come up?
4 MR.
GARCES: I'm going to try not to be
5 too verbose. I didn't really
have any prepared
6 comments. But I did want to voice my comments
7 based on what Ron just discussed and a couple of
8 the
other people.
9 For those of you who don't know me, my
10
name is Miguel Garces. I live at 325 Warwick
11 Drive. I've been
on the Environmental Commission
12 for fourteen years. I've been
on the Land Use
13 Board for fourteen years.
14 I've been
on the Redevelopment Advisory
15 Board, the Historic Preservation
Committee. I'm
16 also the municipal designee for the Highlands
17 Municipal Council for Mayor Dancer. I've also been
18
working for the DEP for twenty-five years. I think
19 I know a
little bit about the environment and the
20 area where I live.
21 I wanted to go over a few points and
22 ditto what Mayor
Dancer said. This is the Township
23 of Plumsted. This is the
brochure that we prepared
24 a while back, 3,000 plus acres
preserved from
25 development. Right here on the top is the
Lakewood
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81
1 Preservation
Area, the 390 acre Lakewood
2 Preservation Area.
3 The
Lakewood Preservation Area is not
4 just these little few lots.
The whole entire are is
5 slated to be the preservation area. All
that area
6 is supposed to be purchased. There are still plans
7 to purchase it, the last I remember. As the money
8 becomes
available the Township has been doing that.
9 The Township
prepared years ago,
10 through a lot of work, the conservation
element of
11 the master plan. That's right here.
12 This
actually served as a model for the
13 State of New Jersey. We
were lucky enough to have
14 been called to an ANJEC conference
and presented
15 our conservation element. All the other
16 municipalities, including in Pennsylvania, wanted
17 to know
how we did it and how we actually worked
18 the conservation
element. We are very proud of
19 this.
20 This thing here
is actually full of
21 plans, full of every map. Here is the
Lakewood
22 Preservation Area. Here are the other two
23
preservation areas. For those of you who don't
24 know, there are
three major preservation areas in
25 the Township.
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82
1 In the back of this entire
plan--for
2 those of you who don't know, there is permanent
3 preserved open space. There is also a map of
4 properties
that we would like to acquire in the
5 future. This goes by lot
and block, recently
6 preserved lands and land that we still plan
to
7 acquire.
8 So this is a living document. This is
9 the kind of stuff that we've been proud of and have
10 been
leaders in the State on. To be honest with
11 you, when I first
heard about destroying the
12 preservation area that we purchased
so far for the
13 sewer discharge, I was appalled. Not because we
14 don't need sewers, I know we need sewers.
15 Everybody
knows we need sewers.
16 I've been supporting this. I was on
17 Main Street in 1997 when we were first holding the
18 Main
Street meetings. Yes, we realize we need
19 sewers. But to knock
down fifty acres of trees is
20 ridiculous.
21 Exactly as
the gentleman from the
22 Preservation Alliance said--the
Conservation
23 Alliance, what we need to do is develop a
24 comprehensive map. This was never done. The
25 Environmental
Commission wasn't working with this.
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83
1 I don't know who was working with the State. I
2
don't know who at the State recommended these
3 lands. But we
never saw a GIS plan. This was done
4 with engineers, this was
done with Schoor, De
5 Palma.
6 This was a very detailed
document. We
7 had everything in here. We have a whole entire
8 conservation plan. I also helped author the
9 Woodland
Preservation Plan that Ron and I got
10 together on. That was to
preserve all the woods in
11 the Township.
12 Anybody that
comes in front of the Land
13 Use Board has to follow the
Woodlands Preservation
14 Plan. They have to do an environmental
impact
15 statement. We are actually more stringent on
16
somebody wanting to build a five acre development
17 than we have
been in this project so far.
18 I do not understand how you can
take
19 the whole Township, as big as it is, and not even
20 come up with a GIS map or plan, that says here are
21 the
soils, here is the priority, come up with a
22 ranking, come up
with a methodology. Why it has to
23 be fifty contiguous acres? I
don't know.
24 Another thing that I'm really concerned
25
about is, there is very little sharing of the
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84
1 burden here. The Kokes Corporation, what are
they
2 putting on this site of Planned Residential
3
Development? How much of the recharge is on their
4 land? How
much of the plant is on their land?
5 Nothing. The plant is
downtown. The pump station
6 is downtown. The discharge area is
across the
7 town.
8 What is Kokes getting? They are
getting
9 exactly what they want. They have gotten a clean
10 property, no open space, no damaging thing. So we
11 are
the ones, all the other residents, are the ones
12 that are
taking the hit. Kokes is getting off
13 scott free.
14
Maybe-- is there a methodology where
15 they can put maybe ten
percent of the recharge
16 charge on their property? There is a
lot of open
17 space. It is a cluster development. Nobody has
18 discussed that.
19 So my main thing here is-- for those of
20 you who don't know, this is a map of the planned
21
discharge area. I'll show it around in a second.
22 There is the
Township landfill. The proposed
23 discharge area is in here. The
groundwater
24 direction of flow is here, toward Millsream Road.
25 This here are forested wetlands with threatened
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85
1 species. This is from the DEP website.
2 All the water from here is going to go
3 this way. Oh, can
you tell me that a million
4 gallons a day or half a million,
however much it's
5 going to be, is not going to impact this
area? It
6 is going to change the whole entire geology. It is
7 going to change the whole entire look of that area.
8 Have
you ever seen what a beaver does
9 when it dams up a field? When
it dams up a field,
10 an entire forest just dies off. That's
what can
11 happen when you have half a million or a million
12 gallons of water. You may not see it the first
13 year,
you may not see it the second year, but
14 eventually the roots
become saturated. These trees
15 are oaks, they are not wetland
species. They are
16 not sweet gums, they are not cedars. All of
17 these--all the hollies will become inundated. All
18 the
properties down there will take a big hit.
19 Until the MUA can
come up with a plan
20 and a strategy, a layout, a GIS plan
saying these
21 are the sites that are prioritized, what about
22 those two big giant open areas on Hull Lane, on
23 both
sides? Those are zoned commercial. Those are
24 two giant
properties right there, on both sides,
25 that be can be used as
recharge areas. Have those
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86
1 been evaluated? I don't know.
2 These are the kind of
things that have
3 to be done, must be done and to be diligent in
your
4 research, have to be done. I don't know how you
5
can submit to the State and say, oh, this is the
6 only parcel
that's left in the whole Township,
7 because it's not, it's not.
8 MR. MC CUE: Let's take a break until
9 five after 9:00.
10 (Whereupon, a recess takes place).
11 We will call the
meeting back to order,
12 all right. Who is next?
13 MS.
HENDRICKSON: Drew Astabury.
14 MR. ASTABURY: Well, good evening.
My
15 name is Drew Astabury, 332 Warwick Drive, Woodland
16 Manor. I'll try to talk so everyone can hear me.
17 Drew
Astabury, 332 Warwick Drive. I live in
18 Woodland Manor. I just
have to re-emphasize
19 everything from my neighbors, as well as
many of
20 the other speakers, my opposition in reference to
21 this.
22 I have great concerns with some people
23
on-- however things went about as far as the press
24 release,
positive environmental impact, fifty acres
25 of mature, wooded
forest, vegetation, numerous
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87
1 species of wildlife. I'm an avid outdoorsman.
2 Ever since
I was old enough to walk in the woods
3 I've been with my father,
partially why I purchased
4 where I purchased.
5 I have
about three and a quarter acres
6 of "beautiful mature forest". I
have great
7 concerns with statements such as that, for where
8 this project is going to be located.
9 As a statement made
as recent as this
10 week, myth versus fact, I've never been
11 approached. The way I found out about this project
12 was
through the news article.
13 Furthermore, I heard reference early
by
14 one of the gentlemen that spoke about entering
15
private property. I have standing water in my
16 wetlands, which
were only 600 or 700 feet from this
17 proposed site. They've
been red flagged. They've
18 been in there surveying and have red
flags on my
19 property.
20 I heard mention it would have
been nice
21 to knock on the door. Well, guess what, never
22 happened. No note was left. With the water and the
23
wetlands there being dangerously close, I find it
24 very hard to
accept that this is going to have a
25 positive environmental
impact.
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88
1 Earlier today I
spoke to a gentleman
2 from the EPA. I don't know if there is any
truth
3 to it or not, that with a system such as this over
4 time eventually there is soil clogging. I haven't
5 had
time to investigate that. I was trying to get
6 some information
today. I'm going to do further
7 investigation on that.
8
So this may not even be a long term
9 solution. As well as the
initial notice that was
10 put on the website and a letter that
was sent for
11 the initial three lots that were chosen, the four
12 additional lots that were mentioned by the Mayor,
13 as of
tonight was the first night. I have pictures
14 of signs that
were posted. After it was brought to
15 the MUA's attention the
proper sign was posted.
16 Because there is a statement in here--
17 just give me one second-- something about the
18 secrecy
of this project. Well, I think that's
19 pretty suspicious in
nature. If it goes from this,
20 then when it is brought to the
Board's attention,
21 then it is corrected.
22 Once again,
thank you for your time.
23 MS. HENDRICKSON: Melissa Philips.
24 MS. PHILIPS: Melissa Philips, 328
25 Warwick Drive,
Woodland Manor. I'm going to try
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89
1 not to get emotional, but as a recent homeowner, we
2
bought our house back in November, we are
3 devastated with what
is happening in our backyard.
4 We have two small children. We
moved
5 from a more township like, a typical town area, to
6 have the private land, the quietness, the preserved
7 green
acres, and would never have purchased this
8 home knowing this
was going to happen.
9 My husband went to the township,
10
inquired, inquired about hunting in this area, any
11 future
things that could happen to this land.
12 Nothing was disclosed
in November 2009. So we feel
13 betrayed.
14 With that
aside, I feel personally if
15 our own mayor has a personal
objection to this
16 site, we haven't heard one person in this
room who
17 supports this project, it is your moral and
18
ethical responsibility to discontinue, I think at
19 this moment,
that site for potential discharge of
20 groundwater.
21 In
addition, I think it is important
22 also to note that this is
the cheapest route for
23 you all, but the most costly for us in
terms of
24 money, for decreased home sales and values, health,
25 because who knows what's going to happen to my
90
90
1 little boy by playing in this dirt
that will be
2 contaminated to some extent, as well as an
3 environmental loss as stated by many of our
4 township
residents.
5 I feel as though this meeting is
6 touching
the surface. I have personally spoken to
7 the DEP mediator. He
stated though it is his
8 requirement to be a non-biased
partisan, he doesn't
9 think this project is a good idea.
However, knows
10 that you all have to follow due process in
applying
11 for this.
12 He also stated that it is the
13 requirement to show why other properties, meaning
14 land,
not financial means, would not be suitable.
15 I feel some of the
surface comments
16 that were touched on tonight, touch upon
financial
17 and tapping into the dependance upon the
18
municipalities. But we haven't heard why other
19 areas and soils
weren't able to be suitable, as our
20 geologist stated, as being
permeable enough.
21 I think that's an important issue to
22 continue to stress as far as hearing facts as to
23 why other
areas of land aren't sustainable.
24 Fourth and last, just when
and what
25 will be done as far as discovering the
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91
1 environmental impact on land, as
well as the homes
2 especially within other neighborhoods and in
close
3 proximity to the discharge water. Thank you for
4
your time.
5 MS. HENDRICKSON: Doug Hallick.
6 MR. HALLICK:
I'm going to stay over
7 here by the map because I want to go
over some
8 things.
9 My name is Doug Hallick, co-owner of
10 Hallick You Pick Farm. We've been in the area
11 since
1949. We're the third generation of farmers
12 in the area. We
expanded our operation from the
13 original ninety acres to just
about 300 now.
14 All of this area is preserved, all of
15
these brown spots. This is all preserved land.
16 Most of these
farms down here, you got the winery,
17 you've got Southland
Farms, you've got De Wolf
18 Farm, you've got Quicky's Farm,
you've got our
19 farm, all survive on irrigation water from this
20 area.
21 Now, you want to bring water that could
22
be contaminated, I hope it is not, out to this
23 site. 539 is
the top of the watershed. So any of
24 this water that gets out
here, that could be
25 contaminated, maybe a hot load got through
at the
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92
1 plant, got
shipped out here, gets into this
2 groundwater, it could cost
millions of dollars of
3 damage to these farms in this area. It
would just
4 shut us down.
5 Vegetables are very sensitive
to any
6 contaminants in the water. There is a big thing
7
about the E. Coli and all of that stuff in
8 California where
they had dairy farms and stuff.
9 Now you are going to put the
sewer plant out here.
10 Nothing guarantees that all of the water
out here
11 is going to be a hundred percent clean. If it is,
12 it is just going to Crosswicks Creek, not pollute
13 the
area out there that is all preserved already.
14 Leave the area
alone.
15 A few questions I had. We use drip tape
16 in
our crops and farming. How far down are they
17 going to put the
drip tape in the ground? How long
18 do they think it is going to
last? What's going to
19 keep it from plugging up so the roots
don't grow
20 through the drip tape?
21 Our drip tape is
only the top two
22 inches of our beds that we make up in the
field.
23 There is a bug out there called a Mole Crick. He
24 loves drip tape and he likes to chew holes in the
25 tape.
We found that out the first year that we put
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93
1 down about 20,000 feet of tape. All of a sudden we
2 had holes all over the place. So there are bugs
3 out there
that will eat on this tape. I don't know
4 how heavy a gauge
their tape is going to be.
5 But when they chew into it the water
6 goes wherever it wants, at the rate it wants to
7 go. So
now we have to treat-- we put our tape
8 down. We treat the area
and we kill off the little
9 Mole Crickets that you cannot see.
They are so
10 small that you have to use a microscope about 400
11 times to the human eye to see them, that's how
12 small
they are. But they love to chew on tape.
13 So there could be
some bugs in the
14 ground that could chew on this tape that they
are
15 going to put in the ground. If this tape is not
16
down below four feet in the ground, it could freeze
17 in the
wintertime. We've had cold winters where
18 water lines at three
foot did freeze. If this
19 freezes up in the wintertime the
system is not
20 going to work. Where is all this water going to
go
21 when it is froze up? If there are any open pits
22
like they talk about, the open retention basins and
23 stuff, the
wintertime comes it is going to ice up.
24 It is not going to go
anywhere. It is just going
25 to stay put.
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94
1 Miguel made a good point. I'm on the
2 Planning Board with Miguel, been there for years.
3 I don't
even know how many years I've been on it.
4 We went through all
of these conversation areas.
5 Every time a house comes in we
take a piece of
6 woodland from the lots. We preserve it and we
try
7 to keep this wooded area all around, so the
8
neighbors aren't looking through the open spots.
9 We've done a
lot of work to do this. Now we want
10 to go out here, we want to
chop it all down, which
11 I think we're going backwards.
12 Most of the farmland that's left in the
13 township or has
been preserved, there are only a
14 couple of farms. We had one
farm out on Colliers
15 Mills Road that we're working to get in
the
16 program. There is an issue there with the people,
17 they want more money for the land. But the State
18 says it's
wetlands.
19 So that is an open site that's there,
20 but
it sure isn't a site to go put a plant out
21 there and dump
water. All of these streams feed
22 all the way around. When you
end up, guess where
23 they go? Crosswicks Creek. All the water
from 539
24 ends up in Crosswicks Creek. It keeps going
25
downstream and goes to the Delaware.
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95
1 Where they say this water is going to
2 go, they
better do a lot more studying to see how
3 deep they are going to
put it and what's
4 underneath.
5 There is marl under that
site, because
6 the old dump was dug up there, because there was
a
7 layer of marl to keep everything from going down.
8
Once you put water on it and you have marl there,
9 you might as
well have a sheet of plastic, because
10 there it is going to
sit. The only thing you can
11 do is just keep spreading out.
When it spreads out,
12 it is going to somebody's well. That's
all I got
13 to say.
14 MS. HENDRICKSON: Tony O'Donnell.
15 MR. O'DONNELL: Hi, Tony O'Donnell, 21
16 Canyon Drive.
Unlike a lot of speakers I actually
17 don't live anywhere near
the area in town. I live
18 over about where the "t" in the Exit
would be if
19 the map were extended, right on the border of
20 Plumsted and Jackson. But I feel the need to speak.
21 As
Ms. Jensen said, that other people
22 should come forward, even
if you are affected. I
23 couldn't agree more. It could be
anybody else's
24 property and we should be looking out-- this is
25 about the worse place that you could pick in
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96
1 Plumsted, from what I know of the area.
2 I should say, to give you a little
3 background, my
profession is, I'm an economist. I
4 work for the New Jersey
Pinelands Commission.
5 Before I worked for the New Jersey
Pinelands
6 Commission I served on ANJEC, the Association of
7 New Jersey Environmental Commissions. In fact, I
8 gave a
presentation to one of their Environmental
9 Commission meetings
a number of years ago.
10 Miguel is correct, you guys are a
11 model, a mode environmental commission. That was a
12 well
received study that you did when you gave the
13 presentation.
14 It is baffling to me that we've gotten
15 to the point
that we narrowed down amiss. Several
16 other speakers have said
it better than I could.
17 Mrs. Eggert did a wonderful job,
Miguel. We need to
18 see everything. We don't need to see cherry
picked
19 areas.
20 There are clearly better areas in
21 Plumsted to do this. Is there a need? Certainly
22 there
is a need for sewers. I think everybody here
23 knows that there
is a need for sewers. We're not
24 against economic development.
At least the last
25 person to be against economic development
would be
97
97
1 an economist.
2 I will say that Mr. Mc Cue mentioned
3 and I know that you
had to kind of tone down the
4 presentation. You mentioned Fort
Dix and you
5 followed up in an answer to somebody's question
6 that there are problems with Fort Dix.
7 It sounded like
the problems with
8 Crosswicks Creek, the constraints sounded
9 environmental. From what I understand it is not
10 the
level of contaminants. Because somebody stated
11 that the water
is being treated to bathing
12 standards that you can swim in,
maybe not drinking
13 standards.
14 So it is not that. I
think the
15 question there was the recharge. They don't want to
16 take the water out of the aquifer and dump it into
17
something that's going out into the ocean. They
18 want to
recharge the water. That one I can give a
19 pass on.
20
The next couple on the list I don't
21 understand. It seems to me
the constraints were
22 economic, not environmental. They are
doing some
23 kind of an agreement with the Ocean County
24 Utilities Authority.
25 The Fort Dix thing several people have
98
98
1 mentioned. I understand
Mr. Mc Cue, that may be a
2 few years away. What I also
understand, I moved
3 here in 1998 with my family, for the same
reasons a
4 lot of people, they like the environment in town.
5 When we moved here they started talking
6 about sewers. On
the timeline that you showed, you
7 gave a great history of it,
you guys started this
8 in 1998. It is 2010, that's twelve years.
9 I don't see the pressing need to do it
10 in the next six
months or year, if we've lived from
11 1998 to 2010 without
getting it done. I understand
12 that you all have a very
difficult job, but that we
13 need answers to these problems.
14 I don't understand why, the thing with
15 Fort Dix, I'd
like to see more information. I
16 think the community needs to
see more information
17 about the economics of those plans, the
economics
18 of sharing capacity with the Ocean County Utilities
19 Authority.
20 It may be more costly than this plan.
21 It might, but not to these people, not to Mr. and
22 Mrs.
Jensen, not to the Garces', not to the
23 Eggerts', not to
everyone else that lives on
24 Warwick Drive and Teakwood Court.
25 I'll tell you as an economist, those
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99
1 property values are going to tank. Some people may
2 not like this. I think that more is being made of
3 the
possible smells and stuff. If this water is
4 treated at the
sewage treatment plant to bathing
5 standards, I don't think you
are going to have
6 worries about smell. But the perception is
what
7 drives market values.
8 When people try to sell
their house on
9 Warwick Drive or Teakwood Court, the other
streets,
10 Success Road, anywhere near there, and they find
11 out they are dumping treated wastewater in the
12 woods,
the property values are going to go down. It
13 is not fair to
those people. There is not a need
14 for it.
15 Lastly,
and I consider myself an
16 environmental economist, there have
been studies
17 done, the New Jersey Department of Environmental
18 Protection did a study. You can put property
19 values--a
lot of times economists put values based
20 on what can I sell
for, how much revenue will it
21 produce?
22 A couple of
years ago a study by, his
23 name is Bill Matz, he's an economist
at the
24 Department of Environmental Protection. Him and a
25 group from the University--Massachusetts Institute
100
100
1 of Technology, did a study to
put values on the
2 land for things other than revenue
generating. It
3 was all economic values.
4 What you find
is when you look at
5 things that way, when you look at them in
total
6 ecosystems, you see that areas of pristine forests,
7 like that spot, are worth a lot of money when you
8 look at
it that way.
9 So I urge you to do what several
10
speakers have suggested you do, especially Ms.
11 Lewis and Mr.
Garces. We need to see a map of
12 everything. The community
needs to be able to take
13 a look at this and weigh these other
options.
14 One final thing I'll say, it goes to
15 the
question of the technology. I won't
16 recommend-- I won't try to
say that I'm a geologist
17 or a water person. But I do know,
being on the
18 Pinelands Commission, and I can answer Mr.
19 Astabury's question. This technology has failed
20 before.
It failed in Hammonton, it's failed at
21 Ancora Psychiatric
Hospital.
22 It sounds from what Mr. Hallick said,
23 that
there is a pretty good chance that it might
24 fail here. Again,
if there is Marl
25 underneath--again, I'll let other people
speak
101
101
1 better than I,
but it sure sounds like we have a
2 chance at failure here. What
happens if it fails?
3 There are just too many things. If in
4 truth Fort Dix is five years away, I can wait five
5 years,
I really can.
6 MS. HENDRICKSON: Betty Smith.
7 MS. SMITH:
Betty Smith, 329 Warwick
8 Drive. Actually, my husband wanted to
be here but
9 he had business and he couldn't, so it is me. I
10 have one major-- I mean, on top of everything
11 that's
already been brought up, obviously, we talk
12 about this. This
is weighing very heavily on each
13 and every one of us. Every
single family will be
14 affected directly and indirectly by
property values
15 and just the entire situation being dumped on
us.
16 I will say this, we never got a letter,
17 ever. I
know that was supposed to be, you know,
18 addressed to us. But
regardless of that, I feel
19 like we're really being dumped on.
20 But the fact of the matter is, if I'm
21 not mistaken,
that parcel of land before it was
22 Green Acres, wasn't it the
dump?
23 (Negative audience response).
24 Well, I've got
to tell you, a lot of
25 that land still has different pieces of
material
102
102
1 back there.
I've been back there. My kids have
2 been back there and they
have seen it. You know
3 what, the dump was the dump but there is
other
4 stuff. I think that the thought of running that
5
amount of water over who knows what was back there,
6 because
those lands--you know, I have old tires and
7 stuff in the back
of my land.
8 So what impact is that going to have to
9
all of us in mobilizing all of this stuff that's
10 back there
and transporting it over everybody's
11 property and then into
the aquifer? I don't know,
12 I just have a lot of concern with
that. That's a
13 very big health concern in my opinion, on top
of
14 everything else that everybody has said.
15 You know
I just-- I guess I don't see
16 the wisdom in doing something
like that. Thank
17 you.
18 MS. HENDRICKSON: Ron Nevers.
19 MR. NEVERS: Ron Nevers, 26 Bayhill
20 Road in Jackson.
More importantly I think for
21 this, I'm the operator of the New
Egypt
22 Marketplace.
23 I think what's interesting, first
of
24 all, America has got to be unbelievable. Democracy,
25 this is it in action. People being here are saying
103
103
1 what they really feel and somebody
listening to
2 them, hopefully that process is working as it is
3 supposed to work.
4 No one is arguing about sewers and that
5 gets me real excited. I'm sincerely concerned
6 about the
lack of sewers downtown. There is simply
7 too much crap in our
groundwater. The ground can
8 only hold so much. This is a nice
close-knit
9 community with a unique hometown character. It
10 deserves a downtown with sewers.
11 At the same time, a
sewer project
12 cannot ignore the concerns of individuals
13 negatively affected by the impact this proposal may
14
have on their home, property and equally way of
15 life.
16 Rarely in my experience does a positive
17 project not carry
with it some negatives. But
18 people have a responsibility to
work together and
19 overcome these negatives, find a win/win for
20 everyone. That's what I've been hearing here more,
21 you
have to work within and you can't rush it.
22 You've got to find
the win/win, go get it.
23 The worst thing that we can do is to
24 miss a great opportunity. And I think we do have
25 some
opportunity here, because of a lack of concern
104
104
1 or respect for the homeowners or others who
may be
2 negatively-- not may, who will be negatively
3
effected by this proposal.
4 I just want to be clear for the
record,
5 with the MUA here. I hope that the sewers and a
6 senior community come to town. That we fill these
7 vacant
downtown buildings and we have an
8 opportunity to grow our
business and employ more
9 than the eighty-five people we have
and provide
10 them with a good way of living.
11 We
already have in this town--and we
12 have to spend just a minute
to reflect on that,
13 some great things. Think about it, we're
talking
14 about the town character. We have the Laurita
15 Winery, which is going to turn out to be one of the
16 best in
the state, Dancer Bed and Breakfast, the
17 Equestrian Center,
our own town clock, that's a big
18 deal. The nice parking lots,
they're beautiful,
19 Volunteer Park. We've got Oakford Lake.
We've got a
20 bridge and fishing pier. We have excellent
21 schools. We have our own high quality emergency
22 services.
We have the police, the fire, the first
23 aid. You know, these
are first class by anyone's
24 measure.
25 We have the
best U-pick it farms. Let's
105
105
1 get the services-- let's get the sewers, whenever
2 we get
them, just find the right spot and the right
3 spot for the water
discharge that doesn't have the
4 negative impact that we're
hearing about here
5 today.
6 MS. HENDRICKSON: Robert and
Andrea
7 Bartlett.
8 MR. BARTLETT: Robert Bartlett. I live
9 at 165 West Mill Street. My main concern with all
10 of
this is the water table, it is very high. We
11 already have
enough flooding as it is over there.
12 The houses down the
street from me, they are worse
13 than I am.
14 I'm
concerned about my well water, what
15 the effect is going to be
on that, okay. Because I
16 know it is going to have an effect on
it, without
17 question.
18 You know, before it was
mentioned about
19 840,000 gallons going through there. You said
that
20 it was incorrect. Doing the testing for it, how
21
can you test the ground there for 840,000, or any
22 amount of
water, unless you have some kind of idea
23 of what water is
going to be running through
24 there? That's all I have, thank
you.
25 MS. HENDRICKSON: Herb Rinari.
106
106
1 (No Response)
2 Allison Baker.
3
MS. BAKER: Good evening. I'm Allison
4 Baker, 6 Hill Lane, Cream
Ridge. I just want to
5 suggest that it is, in my opinion, a
completely
6 oxymoronic proposition to be a township who prides
7 itself on Green Acres preservation. I believe we
8 have
more preserved acres in this township as
9 compared to all of the
other townships in Ocean
10 acres or one of the highest in green
acres.
11 MR. MC CUE: In Ocean County.
12 MS. BAKER: In
Ocean County, yes.
13 MR. MC CUE: I'll defer to Doug what
14 the percentage is, but it is well over ninety-five
15 percent.
16 MS. BAKER: To suggest that we take
17 some of those acres
and use them for such a purpose
18 as this, it is just completely
an oxymoron.
19 Personally I'd be willing to pay a little bit
more
20 in taxes if we could find a more appropriate
21
place. Be it Fort Dix which we would have to wait
22 the five
years for, maybe, or wait a certain number
23 of years.
24
I think I'm another one who agrees, I
25 think we have a little
bit more time. I don't
107
107
1 think it has to happen in 2010. We can spend a
2 little more
time finding a more appropriate place
3 for this. I thank you for
hearing me.
4 MS. HENDRICKSON: Kathy Mc Caughey.
5 MS. MC
CAUGHEY: Kathy Mc Caughey, M-c
6 C-a-u-g-h-e-y. Again, Kathy Mc
Caughey, 8 Oakford
7 Avenue. I just want to put a face on the
residents
8 of the downtown. We heard from the businesses, you
9 know, from the Marketplace and from all the
10 places. We
all know what downtown looks like.
11 What you may not know is
what my backyard looks
12 like.
13 Although I do agree
with you one
14 hundred percent as far as-- what we're taking
away
15 as far service preserved land. We can't wait. For
16 those of us who live on Oakford Avenue, I have lake
17 view.
I'm right by the lake. We can't wait five
18 years.
19 So
I know all of you are saying, okay,
20 well, we can wait on this.
Yeah, you can all wait.
21 I don't know what will happen when my
septic system
22 fails. I have a 60 by 120 lot in which my house
23 takes up most of that. What do I do?
24 So I just wanted
to put a face on why
25 sewers are so desperately needed, not
only by the
108
108
1
businesses, but by the residents, okay. Like I
2 said, I do agree
with you, I know many of you.
3 Just be aware that it is just not
just the
4 businesses. It is the people who live right there
5 who need it desperately.
6 We can't wait five years. I
encourage
7 you to please keep looking and please keep trying
8 before five years. I don't know if I can make it
9 five
years. Thank you.
10 MS. HENDRICKSON: Matt Newkirk.
11 MR.
NEWKIRK: My name is Matt Newkirk.
12 I live at 318 Warwick Drive.
That's in Woodland
13 Manor. I just got a copy, Mr. Mc Cue, of an
e-mail
14 you forwarded to that I take exception to. I just
15 want to put it on the record for anyone who hasn't
16 read
it.
17 You stated that it's important that the
18 Township
hears from people who want to see things
19 move forward and who
believe that sewers are
20 necessary to save our downtown. Does
that mean
21 people that are opposed to your project, that their
22 opinion is not important, that they shouldn't come
23
forward?
24 MR. MC CUE: No.
25 MR. NEWKIRK: That's not
what your
109
109
1 e-mail
reflects. I just wanted to put that on the
2 record, thank you.
3 MS. HENDRICKSON: Larry Downs.
4 MR. DOWNS: Mr. Mc Cue,
members of the
5 Committee, Larry Downs, 2 Teakwood Court. That's
6 also in the Woodland Manor development.
7 I'm not going to
belabor the points
8 that were made by my neighbors. I think they
were
9 made very well. I am here speaking in opposition.
10 Based on the open space acquisitions which you are
11 to be
commended for, this project does take us
12 backwards, in my
view.
13 My first concern is, what's the rush to
14 do
this? Notwithstanding the previous speaker, I
15 think we need to
get this right. I think it's
16 important. I think we need to
explore all the
17 options and not to rush to judgment. If there
are
18 options that are available a few months or a few
19
years down the line that will preserve our town, I
20 think, and
what we have here, I think we need to do
21 that.
22 I
have one question, I think it is for
23 Mr. Dwyer. During your
presentation you said that
24 there's an exhaustive analysis done
to the property
25 to make sure there is not groundwater mounding
that
110
110
1 does not occur,
that a lot of analysis goes into
2 that.
3 Do you ever get
that wrong? Has a
4 project not gone the way--
5 MR.
DWYER: Not in my experience.
6 MR. DOWNS: Let's say you did get
one
7 wrong, what's the fall-out for that? Basically
8
we're looking at a community that this groundwater
9 discharge is
basically in our backyard. I want to
10 know, is that an
environmental disaster? What
11 would occur with groundwater
mounding if your
12 calculations were off? What's the remediation
plan
13 for that?
14 MR. DWYER: Well, it would depend on
15 what your groundwater mounding situation was. If
16 you
have a mounding so that the--
17 MR. DOWNS: Let's say it s
840,000
18 gallons a day?
19 MR. DWYER: There are several
answers
20 to the question, depending on what the mounding
21 situation is, where it is occurring. If there is a
22
failure of a disposal bed you have to have a
23 replacement area
to go to for that disposal.
24 MR. DOWNS: It sounds expensive.
I'm
25 just indicating that I think we need to look very
111
111
1 carefully at everything that
can go wrong, as well
2 as everything that can go right. I'm not
against
3 sewers, but I want to make sure that we get it
4
absolutely right. I think we have to take the time
5 and do the
proper analysis to get that right.
6 Thank you for your time.
7 MS. HENDRICKSON: Aaron Heller.
8 MR. HELLER: Hi, I'm Aaron
Heller. I
9 live at 68 Evergreen Road, right downtown. I'm a
10 lifelong resident. My family has been here for
11
seventy-two years at this point. So I've seen the
12 changes in
New Egypt. I've seen what's going on
13 downtown.
14 I've
lived on Evergreen for twenty
15 years. When I bought my house
they were talking
16 about-- that was one of the selling features
that
17 the realtor was telling me, that the sewers are
18
coming downtown. Don't worry about that crappy
19 septic system
you have.
20 Well, it's twenty years later and here
21 we
sit. We need them desperately. Whether this is
22 the answer? If
I lived in the Woodlands development
23 I'd be saying the exact
same things as everyone
24 else here. I'd be very concerned with
what's going
25 on.
112
112
1 It doesn't change the dire need for
2 things downtown, as
Mr. Nevers said and Kathy said.
3 As a downtown resident I think
all of us would
4 implore you to find what options you can. It's
got
5 to be done. It is an economic issue. It is an
6
economic issue just like you are going to lose
7 property values
on yours, we've already lost it on
8 ours. It is already done. I
couldn't sell my
9 house today because I can't pass a septic
test,
10 there is no way.
11 Even the opportunity to move
out to a
12 nicer area, which we thought about over time, here
13 in the township because we wouldn't want to leave,
14 with
can't do anyway.
15 I don't have envy your position one
16
bit, Mike, the Board has a lot in front of them.
17 But you've a
got long road with this one. I just
18 implore you to keep
finding options. If this
19 doesn't work, it doesn't change the
need.
20 I'm sorry, but the five year wait is
21 not
acceptable. If anybody thinks that's
22 acceptable, come down by
the creek when we've got
23 flooding and the water table goes up.
Because a
24 lot of people paid a lot of money for their
25 properties and they're taking a beating from it.
113
113
1 I appreciate your time and your
2
effort. Again, I hope you find something that will
3 suit all of
us to the best you can. You're never
4 going to please us all,
that's for sure. Thank
5 you.
6 MS. HENDRICKSON: Emma
Swearingen.
7 MS. SWEARINGEN: Hi, my name is Emma
8
Swearingen. I am a resident of Woodland Manor, 336
9 Warwick
Drive, S-w-e-a-r-i-n-g-e-n.
10 Most of the residents have
articulated
11 most of our concerns. For those of you that don't
12 know, Woodland Manor sits-- pretty much too short
13 of a
reach, but up there. When I bought my house I
14 knew that it had
wetlands on it.
15 Let me show you what it looks like
16
right now. Because I couldn't put a pool in my
17 backyard if I
wanted to, because of the wetlands
18 line.
19 This is my
lot. It's at the end of a
20 cul-de-sac. There is my house, there
is the
21 wetlands line. This is all wooded property, it is
22 beautiful. There is still running water out there
23 from
the snow and rain we had in March.
24 There are Mosquitos out
there. You
25 want to dump more water out there? My sump pump is
114
114
1 going to be running
constantly just to keep my
2 basement dry.
3 I understand
the need for sewers
4 downtown and it is an economic issue. My
only
5 concern is, they were talking about this ROSI
6
thing. If you have to purchase acres to makeup for
7 what you are
going to use for this wastewater
8 discharge, that's an economic
impact to Plumsted.
9 I don't know about you, but the economic
impact
10 across the state is not real good right now. Can
11 this township afford to do that?
12 I understand that it
is about money,
13 but my house was just reassessed last year,
the
14 year before, a couple of years ago when they did
15
all the reassessments. I'm paying a lot of taxes.
16 Not as much
as some, but I'm paying a nice share.
17 Our development isn't a
huge drain on
18 the resources in this township. There is a not a
19 whole lot of police activity, not a whole lot of
20 fire
activity. Sometimes fire alarms go off, but
21 that happens.
22 As for what it cost this township for
23 our development,
a lot of us don't even have kids
24 in the school system, so we
didn't really know what
25 was going on downtown until we started
talking
115
115
1 amongst
ourselves once the snow melted and we got
2 outside. We're the
last to be plowed out. Half of
3 us plowed out each other this
winter.
4 So I understand the need to improve the
5
Township, but at what expense? I'm not sure if you
6 can answer
this question now, but I'm new to this.
7 I know this is the
first township meeting, at least
8 for the water discharge area.
What's the
9 responsibility here? Is there going to be another
10 public hearing?
11 Are you going to be able to get back to
12 any of the concerns raised in this room? Because
13 no one
is taking notes. I know it is all being
14 recorded, all right,
so you are going to play it
15 back, I understand. I don't know
the process, I
16 really don't. I don't normally get involved.
17 MR. MC CUE: Well, just to quickly
18 answer your question
right there, Mayor Dancer
19 touched on it. There is going to be
at least one
20 more, if not two more public hearings on this. At
21 each of those meetings there will be additional
22
information. Meaning the record from this hearing
23 will have
been submitted to the DEP and available
24 at that next hearing,
okay.
25 When I say submitted to the DEP, that's
116
116
1 going to be a public record. I don't
know how, but
2 it will be available. Again, I don't know the
3 mechanism, but it will be available to everybody,
4 but it
will be available.
5 A VOICE: Are you going to put it on the
6 website maybe, so we can access it through the
7 township
website?
8 MR. MC CUE: I can't answer that. From
9 a
technical point of view I can't answer that.
10 Again, I don't
know how long the record, that
11 particular document would be.
I'm not sure that--
12 I don't know if the township website can
handle it.
13 If we can do it, we'll try to do that.
14
MS. SWEARINGEN: Just one more quick
15 thing. You wanted
alternative plans. Shared
16 services, I understand you had
mentioned earlier
17 you looked into shared services and some of
the
18 townships weren't quite as far along as us. Well,
19 if we brought them up to speed we might be able to
20 do
something. I mean, we're looking at shared
21 services anywhere
in the state to try to save
22 money, I don't know.
23 You
just asked for alternatives. You
24 said throw them out there.
I'm throwing it out
25 there.
117
117
1 Do you have any plans for how you are
2 going to do
that ROSI diversion? If you take this
3 land to do this, do you
know where you are going to
4 purchase those sixty or one-hundred
twent acres? I
5 don't know if that's far along. I don't have
that
6 information.
7 MR. MC CUE: No, we don't have that
8 determined yet.
9 MS. SWEARINGEN: Do you know when you'd
10 be determining that?
11 MR. MC CUE: By September, when we
make
12 the submittal.
13 MS. SWEARINGEN: Okay. Thank you
for
14 your time.
15 MS. HENDRICKSON: Diane Koy.
16
MS. KOY: Diane Koy. As you are aware,
17 the Pinelands water
bodies are extremely
18 sensitive. We are on the northern fringe
of the
19 Pine Barrens. It is very sensitive to human
20
influences from housing developments, agricultural
21 activities,
septic systems, let alone huge
22 wastewater treatment plants.
23 Some of the reasons for this are that
24 the Pinelands
soils are highly porous, composed
25 primarily of quartz, which
have very little organic
118
118
1 content or clay.
2 As a result, these soils have very
3 little filtering ability with regard to
4 contaminants.
These factors coupled with a strong
5 interconnection between the
groundwater and streams
6 makes the Pinelands a very fragile
ecosystem.
7 Under natural conditions Pinelands
8 waters
are quite acidic. There is a Ph of about
9 5.0 or less. In
addition, the nitrogen
10 concentration, which is an indicator of
nutrients
11 typically associated with fertilizers and septic
12 systems, is very low, usually less than .17 parts
13 per
million.
14 The federal drinking water standard is
15 ten
parts per million. The requirement for surface
16 and groundwater
in the Pinelands is two parts per
17 million.
18 Any
change in this nutrient mixture
19 will increase the rate of
growth of non-Pinelands
20 plant species, according to the
Pinelands
21 Preservation Alliance.
22 Over time native
Pinelands species will
23 be replaced with more invasive species.
The
24 Barnegat Bay Watershed, which Plumsted is a part of
25 and for which this Lakewood Preservation Area is a
119
119
1 part of, has been preserved to
keep that water
2 clean and to keep that area clean, not only the
3 nature and the plants, but also the water.
4 There have
been many residents over the
5 years, and, in fact, it is case
law, where Plumsted
6 Township and Mayor Dancer, you know, to his
credit,
7 he spoke against this project, have denied
8
environmental projects. Even by residents, we
9 can't even cut
down a tree and we're paying
10 property taxes out the "wazoo".
Then you want to
11 cut down fifty acres, that's pretty annoying.
12 The residents of Woodland Manor can't
13 agree more, that
we need to keep this area
14 preserved. There are many threatened
and
15 endangered species on there. In fact, my next door
16 neighbor had a Timber rattler in her backyard and
17 she's got
a picture of it.
18 The other neighbor next to me had Pine
19 Barren Tree Frogs going oink, oink. I won't keep
20 you
all too late. But all the residents of Woodland
21 Manor have
septic systems. We don't want this
22 porous soil getting
contaminated groundwater runoff
23 that you can't swim in. So
please stop it.
24 I hope you don't have further public
25
hearings, because I hope you stop the project and
120
120
1 say this is a dumb ass idea and we need
to get
2 another site.
3 MR. MC CUE: That was all the
folks
4 that signed up to speak. At this point in time I'd
5 like to open it up to anyone who has not already
6 come up
to speak.
7 Your name and address, please.
8 MS. LETTMAN:
Theresa Lettman,
9 L-e-t-t-m-a-n, Pinelands Preservation
Alliance, 17
10 Pemberton Road, Southhampton.
11 I'm
disappointed to hear that there
12 will be more public hearings.
I was hoping that
13 you would decide by now not to do a Green
Acres
14 diversion. The Pinelands Preservation Alliance
15
supports no diversions of purchasing of open space
16 or
farmland.
17 We will join with the New Jersey
18
Conservation Foundation and take a look at the
19 rules to apply
the rules strictly. I do want to,
20 though, just say, that in
the twenty years that
21 I've now worked for the Pinelands
Preservation
22 Alliance, I've seen a lot of applications
23 throughout the Pinelands region of different
24 methods of
applying sewer and wastewater to land.
25 The first one was in
the Kokes
121
121
1 development
in Crestwood, the Crestwood sewer. It
2 was a spray irrigation
field. It failed and sewers
3 had to be brought in.
4 In
Hammonton there are lagoons. They
5 have failed since they began.
Now they have to
6 find another way of handling the sewer and the
7 wastewater.
8 In Ancora, in the Pinelands in a rural
9 development area where sewers are not allowed, the
10 CMP
now has to give in, the rules have to be
11 changed and a
memorandum of agreement had to be
12 signed to bring sewers in a
rural development area
13 because the lagoons have failed.
14 So it is very disappointing to me to
15 hear that that's
the method that you are going to
16 try. So that means, in my
mind, that this will
17 fail and you will have to come up with
another
18 way. But what will be lost is this preservation
19 area that your environmental commissioners spoke
20 about.
21 If this area was going to be the area
22 that you were
going to be preserving, you were
23 targeting it. The failure of
this system is going
24 to effect every single property that
you've
25 preserved surrounding it.
122
122
1 Not only-- the residents have spoken, I
2
let them speak first. My concern is the public
3 open space. It
will never be the same in the area
4 surrounding this facility.
5 MR. MARCHU: My name is Tom Marchu, 330
6 Warwick Drive,
M-a-r-c-h-u. I'm another resident of
7 Woodland Manor.
8
You know, I was up a couple of nights
9 trying to get the water
out of my basement over the
10 winter and wasn't able to do it.
How many people in
11 here were flooded?
12 (Audience
response).
13 That's quite a few. I'm sure quite a
14 few
have left. I'm sure that rain and that snow
15 didn't equate to
anywhere near the kind of water
16 you're talking about dumping
out there.
17 There is no doubt in our minds, the
18
people who live out there, we knew it. We knew the
19 groundwater
was high when we moved out there.
20 Fortunately, we built new
houses. We
21 have french drains that all goes to sumps, this and
22 that. However, that doesn't always work when. You
23 put
enough water into overwhelmed systems, I know
24 people that have
two pumps, they have to actually
25 have two, because one
overwhelms one.
123
123
1
Miguel Garces, right here. I saw him
2 the day after the flooding
cutting carpeting out of
3 his basement. He dug down, I think
probably six
4 inches, until he hit water, six inches outside his
5 basement.
6 I had the same issue. We all knew it
7
was high. If you ever drive through that
8 development and look
how all the houses are raised,
9 they weren't just raised so they
can level off the
10 septic system. They were raised because the
water
11 level is so high and it's been that high since--
12 I've been there fifteen years. It's been that high
13 that
long.
14 We've had off and on some dry spells.
15 I don't
know for sure, but, Drew, has our water
16 ever disappeared in
the wetlands?
17 MR. ASTABURY: No.
18 MR. MARCHU: In
fifteen years that
19 we've lived there, I'm talking about
something that
20 looks like streams, you know, running through
the
21 back of our properties.
22 Now, we knew there was
wetlands back
23 there. We were good with it. You know why? It
24 preserves the land. We thought nobody is going to
25
bother this, it is wetlands. We got trees, we
124
124
1 got-- you know what I wakeup to every
morning? Wild
2 turkeys. I've got wild turkeys in my backyard.
3 I've got deer in my backyard.
4 I don't want to see that go
away. I
5 understand we have a need for-- the town has a
6
need. I agree it has a need. But you are going to
7 take that
problem and make it our problem. That's
8 what I have a problem
with.
9 If you look at--I think one of you guys
10 said
that half of our township is, I guess
11 government land, Fort
Dix.
12 If you look at this area, this is
13 pretty much
the heart of Plumsted Township. I'm
14 not saying the heart of
New Egypt, but it is the
15 heart of Plumsted Township, beautiful
land. Have
16 you guys ever been back there?
17 Did you
ever walk back there, just
18 check out the woods, look at the
trees? Nice big
19 oaks. They've been there, I don't know, fifty
to a
20 hundred years, at least, I'm going to say,
21
beautiful land, I mean, just beautiful. Any time
22 you will see,
you know, a buck, wild turkeys, this
23 and that.
24 God
knows, my wife is into-- this is a
25 little weird, she's into
frogs. I can't tell you
125
125
1 just the number of species of frogs and turtles,
2 just,
you know, the impact this is going to have on
3 that. This is
just-- while I understand the need,
4 talk about following your
own nest. This is the
5 heart of this township. Where is your
growth after
6 that?
7 It is not just about not in my
8 backyard. I moved here from a place called
9 Bridgewater.
That really had no trees. That's why
10 I came here. I built a
deck. I didn't cut down
11 one tree. I spent a lot of money extra
to build the
12 deck around the trees.
13 I didn't have to
cut any of these trees
14 down. Now you guys want to do this.
This is
15 disturbing. I'm sorry, I'm done. Thank you.
16
MR. MC CUE: Anybody else that has not
17 spoken that would like
to come up? You're next.
18 MR. YOUNG: My name is Tom Young. I
19 lived in this community my whole life.
20 A VOICE: Where?
21 MR. YOUNG: I live on North Success
22 Road. My family were
actually farmers out here with
23 the Hallicks. Jim Fredrich, I
hunted with his
24 father on the property where your houses are
now,
25 thirty years ago. I still remember it, water this
126
126
1 high, throughout that whole
property. Where your
2 houses are is a swamp. Where the garbage
dump is
3 was a swamp, too.
4 They brought fill in to fill
the bottom
5 so they can throw the garbage in there.
6 I'm
an engineer. I look at it from the
7 safety standpoint of this
whole situation. One,
8 we're going to dump a lot of water in an
area
9 that's already wet. Two, we're going to dump water
10 in an area that has a garbage dump. Three, we're
11 going to
have to rip up every road in the town to
12 put pipes in. Four,
has anybody said anything to
13 the town, the businesses in town,
because they're
14 going to need grease traps; right?
15
Has anybody looked into the cost of the
16 local business in
town? I happen to know a little
17 bit about septic systems,
sewage treatment plants.
18 There are a lot of factors that this
Township
19 hasn't looked at yet, cost, trucks, maintenance.
20 We're going to have hire people. This town doesn't
21 have
that money.
22 I sat on the Rec Board for years. We
23 had
to give money back this year. Give money back
24 because the
township doesn't have enough money to
25 keep running business as
usual. We're going to
127
127
1
spend millions of dollars and put all of this on
2 that side of
the town, for something on the other
3 side of the town, and the
city itself-- I call it a
4 city.
5 I remember when there
was a bar where
6 the parking lot was. I don't remember the movie
7 theater. I do remember the bar. Where is Mr.
8 Hallick, is
he still here? Remember the bar, the
9 American House there?
10 MR. HALLICK: Yeah.
11 MR. YOUNG: Okay. I don't remember
the
12 movie theater. I remember the bar, though. I just
13 think it is a poor spot. I think you need to relook
14 at
everything. Yes, the downtown does need
15 septics, I agree,
sewer or something. I think the
16 way you are going about it is
wrong.
17 It is a safety issue. I don't even--
18 can you
get a pipe across the bridge in town to
19 carry the sewage or
the waste? Have we looked into
20 that? Have we talked to the
Ocean County Bridge
21 Commission?
22 There is a lot of
work, a lot of
23 expense, that we the taxpayers are going to
have to
24 take on. Thank you for your time.
25 MS.
WILCOX: Michelle Wilcox, a resident
128
128
1 of Fieldcrest Drive. My neighborhood is directly
2
across from where site two would be. I know we
3 heard a lot from
the Woodland Manor people as a
4 whole. But Fieldcrest Drive is
also affected by
5 any of this water that's going to be
discharged
6 coming down.
7 Many people in my neighborhood
had
8 basements flooded out. We always get flooding no
9
matter what, where we are. But people in our
10 neighborhood who
had never had flooding, with the
11 past winter had really bad
flooding. I feel with
12 the additional, you know, water coming
in it's just
13 going to be more problems for us.
14 I
have three small kids. I'm worried
15 about, like, the
medications coming into the
16 water. What if they are drinking
it? You have
17 animals. I mean, there is just too much that I
18 think this is not a good area for it. Thank you.
19 MR. MC
CUE: Anyone else that hasn't
20 spoken? Yes, sir.
21 MR.
MC CRONE: My name is Rich Mc
22 Crone. I live at 326 Warwick
Drive, also Woodland
23 Manor. I'm not as articulate as some of
my
24 neighbors, but I'm going to do my best.
25 You
mentioned three different types of
129
129
1 ways of putting water into the ground, beds, ponds
2
and drip. Has it been decided which is going to be
3 the type?
4 MR. MC CUE: No.
5 MR. MC CRONE: So we're not even that
6 far?
7 MR. MC CUE: No.
8 MR. MC CRONE: We don't
know. We don't
9 know if we're going to cut all the trees and put
a
10 drip in.
11 MR. BRONSON: We don't even know if the
12 site is suitable yet.
13 MR. MC CRONE: We don't know if it
is
14 suitable?
15 MR. MC CUE: The privately owned site.
16 MR. MC CRONE: That we have to purchase
17 yet, we don't
even own that?
18 MR. MC CUE: We have access agreements
19
to do an investigation of those sites. We have
20 not-- if they
prove not to be viable, we would need
21 to sell them if we
already owned them. We've got
22 site access agreements to
investigate those sites.
23 MR. MC CRONE: Then we have to
purchase
24 them?
25 MR. MC CUE: If they prove to be
130
130
1 viable, if we go that
way.
2 MR. MC CRONE: Okay. Again, I live
3 here. This is a
copy of my survey when I purchased
4 the house. Like my neighbor
showed before, this is
5 a wetlands line on my property. The
proposed site
6 is directly adjacent, right off of my property.
7 So I have wetlands on my property.
8 This is a copy I used
to get a permit to build a
9 deck on the back of my house, which
was initially
10 denied because of the proximity to the wetlands.
11 So they wouldn't let me build a deck because one of
12 my
footings was within the fifty foot buffer that
13 they drew in to
show me that I wasn't allowed to
14 build my deck.
15 I
have a deck. Just my point, that
16 there is wetlands, like
everyone else said. They
17 are there. You may close your eyes
and not think
18 they are there. The creatures are there and we'd
19 like them to stay there.
20 Also, I have a question about
this
21 hearing and how it works. Everything that's said
22 here tonight by those opposed and the people who
23 want it,
does it just fall on deaf ears? Do you
24 listen? Do you take it
in, or are your minds made
25 up that this project is going
through? How does it
131
131
1
work? What happens to what we say, what we feel?
2 How does it
work, can someone explain that to me?
3 Like when we leave here
tonight, we are
4 all going to go home, going to feel good, oh,
boy,
5 we told them. But does it mean anything? I want
6
to know, does it? Does anything that the people
7 here say
tonight have any bearing on what the
8 commission or the MUA
wants to do? That's a
9 question, that's a legitimate question.
Or like,
10 you guys have your program, this is what you want
11 to do and you are going to do it. You are going to
12 file
your DEP things, put your applications in.
13 Then we'll have
another hearing, we'll all come up
14 and say it again. You will
put a second
15 application in, have a third hearing, then you'll
16 be cutting down trees. Is that how--I really want
17 to
know how it works?
18 MR. MC CUE: That's how it works.
19
MR. MC CRONE: That's how it works,
20 what I have just said?
21 MR. MC CUE: Everything that everybody
22 says goes into
the record and goes to the DEP.
23 MR. MC CRONE: That's theater;
right?
24 MR. MC CUE: It's theater?
25 MR. MC CRONE: This
is theater. This is
132
132
1
just like throwing us a bone, so we have something
2 to say. Boy,
we gave them a fight, but it means
3 nothing. Is that what this
is?
4 MR. MC CUE: It is not theater.
5 MR. MC CRONE: I
feel like it is
6 theater. One more question.
7 A VOICE:
Give us an answer. What
8 happens to our comments?
9 MR.
MC CUE: It goes on the record.
10 MR. MC CRONE: What does that
mean? I
11 don't understand what that means.
12 MR. MC
CUE: Your comments--if someone
13 came up and asked a question,
we would answer it in
14 the record. We answer it in the record
that goes to
15 the DEP.
16 MR. MC CRONE: Excuse me?
17 MR. MC CUE: We answer it in the record
18 that goes to the
DEP.
19 A VOICE: How can we find out the
20 answers?
21 MR. MC CUE: It will be a public
22 record.
23 MR.
MC CRONE: I don't understand what
24 that means. In other words,
we're up here, all of
25 us who have spoken tonight, for and
against.
133
133
1 Have-- you
know, we want to feel that we did it for
2 a reason, that it
matters. Does it, that's my
3 question? Does it matter what we
think or what we
4 feel, does it matter? Does it have any impact
at
5 all on what is going to happen in the future,
6
that's my question?
7 A VOICE: Does anyone in the State
8
consider our opinions?
9 MR. MC CUE: I apologize, let me stay
10 with this gentleman here. I mean, I'm here three
11 hours
now, I'm listening.
12 MR. MC CRONE: I get it.
13 MR. MC
CUE: You get that?
14 MR. MC CRONE: I get that you are here
15 three hours.
16 MR. MC CUE: I'm hearing what everybody
17 is saying and I'm listening, all right.
18 Are we going to
go back in a room and
19 make an evaluation, then maybe come back
five
20 minutes later and say something? Everything that
21 everybody said we've taken in.
22 We have public meetings.
We're here at
23 least once a month, if not more, all right. We
24 will discuss what is happening here. You guys can
25 come
back and listen to us discuss this.
134
134
1 But we will generate a record that
2 goes--if we
decide to go this way--
3 A VOICE: Why is it just your
4
decision?
5 MR. MC CUE: Why is it just-- because
6 the
township--I'm sorry?
7 A VOICE: You are public servants;
8
correct?
9 MR. MC CUE: Public servant? I'm an
10 appointed
member to the MUA. The Township
11 Committee delegated the
implementation of the
12 redevelopment plan to the MUA. That's
what our
13 responsibility is.
14 A VOICE: You are to
listen to what we
15 say, hence we're in a democracy, yes?
16 MR. MC CUE: We are listening.
17 A VOICE: Listening with
action.
18 MR. MC CUE: We are going to take
19 action.
We're not going to take any action
20 tonight.
21 MR. MC
CRONE: That's what my question
22 is, what does or does this not
accomplish, this
23 hearing? Does it accomplish anything? Is
there a
24 reason for having it other than just to give us an
25 opportunity to say something that doesn't matter,
135
135
1 or does what we say matter, that's
my question?
2 Does it mean anything?
3 A VOICE: What is
the weight of our
4 comments?
5 MR. MC CUE: What is that?
6 A VOICE: What is the weight of our
7 comments?
8 MR.
MC CRONE: Is there a weight? Is
9 there an influence--
10
MR. MC CUE: I can't say that right
11 now.
12 MR. MC
CRONE: Does what we have to
13 say--
14 MR. MC CUE: Yes,
it has weight.
15 MR. MC CRONE: It will influence in
16
some way what does or does not take place?
17 MR. MC CUE: I mean,
a lot of the
18 comments, we're going to have to-- some of them
19 were very, very good comments, that we need to be
20 able
to provide information, as part of the record
21 to the DEP.
22 There are questions that you have asked
23 that we have to
answer in writing, that we're going
24 to have in our application
to the DEP.
25 Now, again, we're hoping to have
136
136
1 certain investigations done before
we even get to
2 that point. If those investigations say that
we're
3 barking up the wrong tree, we probably won't get to
4 that.
5 MR. MC CRONE: You're barking up the
6 wrong
tree.
7 MR. MC CUE: Are you a geologist?
8 MR. MC CRONE:
No, I'm not a geologist.
9 MR. MC CUE: I think we need to
10 encourage everyone to come and join in the next
11 meeting?
12 MR. MC CRONE: Absolutely, yeah, I think
13 we're
encouraged.
14 I have one more quick thing. This is a
15
Green Acres set aside?
16 MR. MC CUE: They call it a major
17 diversion. That's what we are applying for.
18 MR. MC
CRONE: But the land itself is
19 Green Acres?
20 MR. MC
CUE: It is acquired-- I don't
21 know if it is acquired under
Green Acres.
22 MR. MC CRONE: Could you build a park
23
there if you wanted to?
24 MR. MC CUE: It is part of the
25 recreation and open space inventory. I'm assuming
137
137
1 and, again, I'm no expert.
2 MR.
MC CRONE: It is already Green
3 Acres land?
4 MR. MC CUE:
Yes.
5 MR. MC CRONE: If this place was a park,
6 if there
was swings there and this and that, would
7 you guys consider it
as an area?
8 MR. MC CUE: I mean, I'll go out on a
9
limb--
10 MR. MC CRONE: My point is, to some of
11 us and
to a lot of us, not just the people that
12 live there, it
already is a park. People walk
13 there. They take their dogs
there. People ride
14 horses there. It is land that is being
used. To
15 you and some other people it is just a bunch of
16 trees, but it is land that's used.
17 There are people
that hunt there.
18 Maybe they are not supposed to, but they do.
There
19 are things that go on there that-- it is not just a
20 piece of land, it is used.
21 I go out there on Saturday,
I bump into
22 neighbors, I bump into people I don't know. They
23 are just taking a walk for nature. It is a park.
24 It
already is a park.
25 If it was a park, like we think of a
138
138
1 park with a ballfield
and a swing, this and that,
2 you wouldn't use it. You wouldn't
use it, you
3 wouldn't even think of using it. You wouldn't even
4 think of using it as a sewage dump site.
5 It's already a
park guy. You've got to
6 get that. You've got to use that.
You've got to
7 think about that, because that's what it is.
That's
8 all I got, thanks.
9 MR. WILCOX: I just have one
follow-up
10 question. My name is Tom Wilcox, 320 Fieldcrest.
11 My wife spoke earlier. I'm on Fieldcrest just
12 above
site two.
13 Just so I understand, everything in the
14
red outline that's designated Town Center, would
15 they be
required to hook into the MUA, even though
16 I have a new house,
brand new septic?
17 MR. MC CUE: The intention of the
18
redevelopment plan was to sewer starting in the
19 downtown area
of Main Street and the appendages
20 coming off, and to sewer as
much as could be
21 economically feasible, based on the project.
22 To answer your question, not the entire
23 Town Center
will be sewered.
24 MR. WILCOX: Could you designate what
25 that would be?
139
139
1 MR.
MC CUE: Yes. We had meetings with
2 the Township Committee to
designate the original
3 project, which was based on two phases,
the PRRC,
4 then parts of the downtown. Then phase two would
5 be additional, once we basically found disposal
6 property,
land for the disposal of water.
7 So the limiting factor-- again,
this is
8 the original plan, what we are looking at now is
9 what we can cover. But the original plan was to do
10 it in
phases.
11 Again, like I said, the original phase
12 one
was the PRRC, Main Street, then the Oakford
13 area and basically
up there. The Township
14 Committee had made that designation.
15 MR. WILCOX: For the record, I'm
16 against it.
17
MR. MC CUE: Anybody else who hasn't
18 spoken before?
19
MS. WILCOX: Michelle Wilcox. That was
20 just my husband. Does
that mean quite possibly we
21 would be required to hook in? I
don't know if this
22 is something that goes to Mr. Mc Guckin as
a legal
23 thing, but can we be forced or required that we
24 would have to hook in?
25 MR. MC CUE: Let's not just take
you as
140
140
1 an example.
Those people in the downtown would be
2 required to hookup.
Whoever was designated in that
3 area, would need to be-- would
be required to be
4 hooked up.
5 MS. WILCOX: Even though I
only had my
6 house for maybe seven, eight, nine years and this
7 one had-- down the road you can make me forced to
8 hook
into your system when I don't need to, when I
9 already have a
system that's working fine for me,
10 we're happy. I don't want
city water. Now all of
11 a sudden I've got to go through that
expense?
12 MR. BRONSON: There are lots of areas
13 in the
downtown that need the sewers--
14 MS. WILCOX: I mean, this is
something
15 very big.
16 MR. BRONSON: Of course.
17 MS. WILCOX: Because I don't have a
18 problem, that's what I'm
saying.
19 MR. BRONSON: Understood.
20 MS. WILCOX: I do
feel for the people
21 who do have a problem.
22 MR. MC
CUE: Right now-- I mean, again,
23 I'm not exactly sure where you
are.
24 MS. WILCOX: Right on Fieldcrest, the
25 little
triangle right across from site two where
141
141
1 you want to put this beautiful plant.
2
MR. MC CUE: Right now that is not
3 planned to be.
4 MS.
WILCOX: You have the groundwater
5 discharge study area. I'm
wondering, pipes that
6 are going to be going that way, are going
to be
7 coming along where I live. I don't want to have to
8 be forced into something, then pay for a new
9 system, you
know what I mean? It's just unfair.
10 I'm really, really against
it. If I wasn't already
11 before, I'm extremely against this, so
thank you.
12 MR. MC CUE: Anybody else have
13 anything?
Miguel.
14 MR. GARCES: Real quick, Miguel
15 Garces. One
thing, just to show you about the
16 preserved area, is that you
notice there is a new
17 sign on 539 that says Ocean County
Natural Land.
18 Just so you know, part of our purchase of these
19 preservation areas has been working co-jointly with
20
Ocean County, to acquire lands that have been
21 bordering that
preservation area.
22 Those Ocean County Natural Lands Trust
23 was purchased by Ocean County knowing that we have
24 a
preservation area there. So once we-- if that
25 ever goes
through as a discharge area, that will
142
142
1 definitely take away any impetus from Ocean County
2 to want to buy more property and put more property
3 into
preservation.
4 Because at that point they are going to
5
say, well, it is a sewer discharge area and it is
6 no longer a
preservation area. I just wanted to
7 make sure of that.
8
One last thing, I would request that if
9 we did go to a second
meeting and I hope that we
10 don't go to a second meeting, I
hope this pretty
11 much, you know, makes us go back and look at
the
12 whole project over.
13 But if we do go to a second
meeting I
14 would request that we do it at the high school, in
15 the auditorium. I have a feeling that we are going
16 to
get a lot more people from Fieldcrest and some
17 of the other
areas. I don't want to have another
18 room with people just
standing around like idiots.
19 I think people should have a
little bit of more
20 room. So I suggest planning the high school
the
21 next time.
22 MR. MC CUE: Is there anybody else
that
23 hasn't spoken or wants to--
24 A VOICE: When is
your next regularly
25 scheduled monthly meeting?
143
143
1 MR. MC CUE: It is the bottom of the
2 agenda,
July 20th at 6:00 p.m. in this room, thank
3 you.
4 MR.
MARCHU: I was up once before, is
5 that all right? My name is Tom
Marchu, 330 Warwick
6 Drive. A couple of other questions while I
was
7 sitting here. One of them was can you give us a
8
list of places in New Jersey where this has been
9 done?
10 MR. MC CUE: A major diversion?
11 MR. MARCHU: No, a discharge.
Can you
12 give us a list where this has been done in the
13 State of New Jersey?
14 A VOICE: Successfully.
15 MR.
MARCHU: That would be better,
16 successfully.
17 MR. MC
CUE: Are you going to allow me
18 to screen the list?
19
MR. MARCHU: Just a list.
20 MR. MC CUE: All right. We will get
21 that list together. We will attempt to have it for
22 our
next meeting. If not, at a reasonable time
23 after that, for
sure.
24 MR. MARCHU: One other thing. Can you
25 tell me--
in my mind-- there is no doubt in my mind
144
144
1 that this isn't going to work and I'm not going to
2 flood.
I'm never going to believe this. I know it
3 is going to happen.
That groundwater is so high
4 out there. I wish you guys would
just really do
5 your due diligence to see that.
6 You are
all welcome to come to my
7 house. I'll take a couple of shovels
full of dirt
8 and show you where the groundwater starts.
9 It brings up the question, let's, you
10 know, assume this goes
through like that. Which
11 oh, God, you don't know what that
does for me to
12 say that. Who's going to be liable for my
basement
13 when it floods or any other kind of groundwater
14 flooding, after this thing is done? Where does the
15
liability fall? We have a lawyer here, I think.
16 Can somebody
tell me that, who is going to pay for
17 that? Me, I guess.
18 A VOICE: We're going to live on a
19 floodplain.
20
MR. MC CUE: I can't answer that. I
21 can't answer that.
22 MR. MARCHU: It will be good to know,
23 though. I need to know
who to sue, wen I've got to
24 pay for all of this.
25 The
last thing was-- all right. So we
145
145
1 use
the number 840,000 gallons or whatever. Are
2 there any
guarantees from the time this project
3 starts, that we're all of
a sudden not going to add
4 other towns, other municipalities?
You know, do we
5 have any guarantees of that, even, anything?
6 MR. MC CUE: I can't guarantee
7 anything. I mean, I don't
know that-- you know, I
8 don't know that anyone on the Township
Committee
9 would even consider that. I mentioned about
10
looking for a shared system with neighboring towns,
11 the
Hanovers. Obviously, the issues are with two
12 different-- you
know, two or three different
13 municipalities, two different
counties and things
14 of that nature.
15 I mean, before I
even considered
16 something there would be--you know, the
agreement
17 would be very much in our favor, if I was going to
18 even consider it.
19 The whole point is, that we're
20 building, again, to handle our problem. We're not
21
looking to get somebody else's problem.
22 MR. MARCHU: It has
just been my
23 experience with water and sewer, I've seen it
24 before. The first time the town gets in trouble
25 the
first thing they look to do is add other towns
146
146
1 and take the money they are willing to give them,
2
creating that much more of a problem.
3 MR. MC CUE: I can't speak
for a future
4 Township Committee. That's--
5 MR. MARCHU:
I mean, it is something
6 that should be thought about. I hope
everybody here
7 considers it, at least. It's also been my
8 experience with government that it's never what it
9 seems,
you know. It is always worse than what it
10 seems.
11 We
scratch the surface on things and
12 government always pushes the
limit on everything.
13 They start low and it ends up high,
thanks.
14 MR. MC CUE: Is there anyone else that
15 would
like to speak, make a comment, offer an
16 alternative
suggestion?
17 (No response).
18 All right. I'd like to
have a motion to
19 close this hearing.
20 MR. BRONSON: So
move.
21 MR. MINTER: Second.
22 MR. MC CUE: Roll call,
please.
23 MS. HENDRICKSON: Mr. Mc Cue?
24 MR. MC CUE:
Yes.
25 MS. HENDRICKSON: Mr. Bronson?
147
147
1 MR. BRONSON: Yes.
2 MS. HENDRICKSON: Mr. Minter?
3
MR. MINTER: Yes.
4 MR. MC CUE: All right. Thank you very
5
much everybody.
6 (Whereupon, the matter concludes at
7
10:25 p.m.).
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
148
148
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
2
3 I, CHARLES R. SENDERS, a
Certified Shorthand
4 Reporter and Notary Public of the State of
New
5 Jersey, do hereby certify that prior to the
6
commencement of the examination, the witness was
7 duly sworn by
me to testify to the truth, the whole
8 truth and nothing but the
truth.
9 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that the foregoing is a
10
true and accurate transcript of the testimony as
11 taken
stenographically by and before me at the
12 time, place and on
the date hereinbefore set forth,
13 to the best of my ability.
14 I DO FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither
15 a relative nor
employee nor attorney nor counsel of
16 any of the parties to
this action, and that I am
17 neither a relative nor employee of
such attorney or
18 counsel, and that I am not financially
interested
19 in the action.
20
21
22
23
24 CHARLES R. SENDERS, CSR NO. 596
25
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